Smokeless powder alternatives during shortages?

[oldfb]

Several ideas rattling around in my head tonight for substitute propellants that are safe, cost effective and legal to use for reloading during the current and future component shortages.

I've seen write ups for homemade primers using cap gun and recycled and fabricated primers and homade black powder is still an option for a real crisis. There has even been a polymer case developed to hopefully ease the brass shortage. However nothing that doesn't involve premade/sourced propellants for a modern semi-auto rifle or pistol is available to my knowledge.

I mean we went to the moon and back with the help of a few good minds, this cannot be as hard as rocket science could it?
Without getting into exotic rail or chemical artillery rounds, shouldn't we as shooters be working on some open source alternatives to fuel our sport and training supplies?

Speaking of rocket science, could any of the powdered aluminium or other type reactive based formulas be made stable enough to be a direct substitute if load data is worked up?

Notice I chose open source/hobbyist since I have no interest in becoming the next DuPont.

Legal issues are a concern but should be covered under the hobby rocket laws if kept under legal amounts of the components. INAL

Official legal disclaimer:
Don't try this at home without consulting an attorney and using proper safety precautions first.
With the current home land terrorist laws I would approach anything of this nature carefully while following any BATFE guidelines or other alphabet agency regulations.

Input, ideas, quips and concerns?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Would avoid blackpowder: I made blackpowder 9mm (extrapolated data, lol) and 7.62x39 (saw it in a book, "Guns of the South" so I wanted to try it, lol). Gums up the weapons ricky-tick to failure and the cleaning required is literally complete strip and clean. The juice is not worth the squeeze unless things have failed completely in society to the point where you are stocking sulphur/saltpeter and planting willow trees. On a side note: With BP, you don't need hard lubes (in fact, they suck for that application). I lubed some unlubed tumble groove bullets with Alox or Crisco, worked fine, no leading and was fairly accurate.

If it's boxer primed, save your steel cases. I've loaded Tula .223 cases about 2-3 times before they work hardened to splitting. Accuracy was good enough (not Lapua case consistency, but worked). Was fun to blow through those cases rather than dipping into my brass. I know that .223, .45 and .40 Tula are generally boxer primed, although, 9mm (which I load alot of) is still Berdan.

Powdered alum burns, if anything, too slow, and pressure peaks like mad in enclosed spaces. Avoid this at all costs. There's a reason gun powder is gun powder and alum is for rockets.

For recovered primers: I've seen guys online do it, but again, IMHO, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. If things are going to get that bad, either buy a LOT of primers and store them in dessicated ammo cans. Or, plant willow trees, find a good supply of flint, get a flint lock and buy into sulphur/saltpeter. Oh, and a good pestle/mortar.

 

[oldfb]

Would avoid blackpowder: I made blackpowder 9mm (extrapolated data, lol) and 7.62x39 (saw it in a book, "Guns of the South" so I wanted to try it, lol). Gums up the weapons ricky-tick to failure and the cleaning required is literally complete strip and clean. The juice is not worth the squeeze unless things have failed completely in society to the point where you are stocking sulphur/saltpeter and planting willow trees. On a side note: With BP, you don't need hard lubes (in fact, they suck for that application). I lubed some unlubed tumble groove bullets with Alox or Crisco, worked fine, no leading and was fairly accurate.

If it's boxer primed, save your steel cases. I've loaded Tula .223 cases about 2-3 times before they work hardened to splitting. Accuracy was good enough (not Lapua case consistency, but worked). Was fun to blow through those cases rather than dipping into my brass. I know that .223, .45 and .40 Tula are generally boxer primed, although, 9mm (which I load alot of) is still Berdan.

Powdered alum burns, if anything, too slow, and pressure peaks like mad in enclosed spaces. Avoid this at all costs. There's a reason gun powder is gun powder and alum is for rockets.

For recovered primers: I've seen guys online do it, but again, IMHO, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. If things are going to get that bad, either buy a LOT of primers and store them in dessicated ammo cans. Or, plant willow trees, find a good supply of flint, get a flint lock and buy into sulphur/saltpeter. Oh, and a good pestle/mortar.

Well aren't you the poster child for this movement. People willing to try just because it is an option.
Yes most ideas will be more squeeze than juice because powder and components are still readily available.

I am positive that alternative propellants are viable just not explored since powder is still relatively inexpensive.
That said, the diy hobbyist niche will always remain to explore options and hopefully drive innovations as the varmint, bench shooter and other niche calibers have brought us the .300 AAC Blackout and other options.
Sometimes the just because we can or what if moments produce a bounty of good fruit and I look forward to playing around more with some of them.

Thanks for the great post.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Well aren't you the poster child for this movement. People willing to try just because it is an option.
Yes most ideas will be more squeeze than juice because powder and components are still readily available.

Given I am of a younger generation, not sure if the first line is sarcasm or otherwise.

In any stretch, things can be done if "normal" outlets aren't available. Simple fact is that the gun industry, and a wide range of others, are filled with folks that want to try something new, try something they THINK is new, and so on, wanting to become the next Ken Waters, Elmer Keith, Samuel Colt, etc... It's cool, keep on keeping on and maybe you'll find the next thing in firearms. Heck, I thought duplex charges (slower and faster powder staged in cartridges with spacers) was something that I came up with, until I realized that others had did it before me (didn't stop me from launching a 110gr .357 Magnum component bullet at 1800 FPS from a 4" GP100 that I had to return to Ruger for a new barrel ).

Some of the things, like loading modern cartridges with BP, isn't new, but nothing 99.9% of the community would even think of doing. My AK ran for two magazines straight with BP cartridges before it gummed to failure. Would I do it again? In a pinch, maybe. Recreationally, no, it was a mess. Heck, Che Guevera and even here recently in the Syrian conflict, people have taken modern sporting arms (like shotguns) and made them into grenade launchers. But let's look at science: Powdered aluminum is not only HORRIFICALLY "corrosive" when it burns (making each "powder" piece burn into the surrounding substrate), but it doesn't burn linerally in an enclosed space. That's why rockets have a nozzle to allow it to escape freely, rather than enclosing it with a component bullet. It's not as efficient either in small amounts.

Realistically, in my mind, the only next step UP in terms of tech from firearms will be portable mag-rail or laser devices. But until then...

 

[trophyhunter]

What you seek as a do it yourself alternative to single or double base blends of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin modern smokeless powders is easy enough to do with results that yield propellants far superior to black powder. The problem is what you need for the ingredients, non potassium based ammonium picrate esters blended for propellant contain lots of nitrates and chlorine bases the EPA has long banned and or strictly regulated the possession of with proper licensing.

Or in other words, you can't reasonably obtain what you need to make it and there are issues of possession of such items to consider even if you could plus regulations of transporting certain compounds under DOT regs and God only knows what the ATF has to say about possessing some of that stuff these days.

What we desperately need is one more plant in the US to give General Dynamics some competition in manufacturing ball powders, or find some way to import more of it. I don't know what it takes to actually get cannister powder imported into the US but Lovex makes a ball powder for every need and I'll bet they would love to sell American consumers as much of it as they can afford to buy at a fair price.

 

[oldfb]

I wasn't being snarky or condescending. I do feel that you latched onto the few examples I offered and offered real world explanation for why they aren't viable.
Were all of your black powder trials done with your hone brew or did you use premade bp in the AK ammo?
Chem wasn't my favorite class so be kind.lol
As for innovation I have seen an air gun advertising in the market of a shotgun powered by air/gas that is pricey but effective.
Maybe I should stick to spud guns...

The acetalyne cannons make noise, could there be a way to scale it down to a small single shot or repeater for pellets?
I remember how tickled I was when they came out with the Pass lode/Impulse nail gun that used butane and a piston to drive the nail.
Unfortunately they never made them light enough for my taste.

Ah well.
Thanks again for the insight.

 

[oldfb]

I'm guessing the established powder plants are grandfathered in like the existing refineries in the US are so opening a new plant is financially not an option? So it is possible to do but is regulated to death and guaranteed to have the ATF and Homeland crawling inside your rectum to see if you're a terrorist. I doubt any new popwder imports will be approved by this administration...

What you seek as a do it yourself alternative to single or double base blends of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin modern smokeless powders is easy enough to do with results that yield propellants far superior to black powder. The problem is what you need for the ingredients, non potassium based ammonium picrate esters blended for propellant contain lots of nitrates and chlorine bases the EPA has long banned and or strictly regulated the possession of with proper licensing.

Or in other words, you can't reasonably obtain what you need to make it and there are issues of possession of such items to consider even if you could plus regulations of transporting certain compounds under DOT regs and God only knows what the ATF has to say about possessing some of that stuff these days.

What we desperately need is one more plant in the US to give General Dynamics some competition in manufacturing ball powders, or find some way to import more of it. I don't know what it takes to actually get cannister powder imported into the US but Lovex makes a ball powder for every need and I'll bet they would love to sell American consumers as much of it as they can afford to buy at a fair price.

 

[Slow Hand]

Would avoid blackpowder: I made blackpowder 9mm (extrapolated data, lol) and 7.62x39 (saw it in a book, "Guns of the South" so I wanted to try it, lol). Gums up the weapons ricky-tick to failure and the cleaning required is literally complete strip and clean. The juice is not worth the squeeze unless things have failed completely in society to the point where you are stocking sulphur/saltpeter and planting willow trees. On a side note: With BP, you don't need hard lubes (in fact, they suck for that application). I lubed some unlubed tumble groove bullets with Alox or Crisco, worked fine, no leading and was fairly accurate.

If it's boxer primed, save your steel cases. I've loaded Tula .223 cases about 2-3 times before they work hardened to splitting. Accuracy was good enough (not Lapua case consistency, but worked). Was fun to blow through those cases rather than dipping into my brass. I know that .223, .45 and .40 Tula are generally boxer primed, although, 9mm (which I load alot of) is still Berdan.

DH, I just had to comment that I'm amazed ANYONE else had read 'Guns of the South', but since someone did, I'm not surprised at all it was you!!

I, too, have reloaded steel .223 cases before with good results. I only picked up my once fired cases and let them lay after the second firing, but the y worked just fine.

Ive vey also shot some BP in semi autos, but only .45 acp, never tried it in a gas gun. Good lube makes a big difference in shooting BP. Soft bullet lube helps keep the bore 'clean' and with a few squirts into the action, my 1860 Henry could fire well over a hundred rouds of full power BP loads at a cowboy match back in the day.

Im no help on the 'alternative propellants' section, other than experimenting with using shall we say, 'non-standard' powders in various calibers. I remember reading about the Rusdians, or Finns using 7.62 Tokarev ammo to reload their X54 for the Mosin. I want to say they used 1 1/2 X25 powder charges to load hot enough ammo in the X54 to take a deer down.

 

[warthog]

you can make BP easy enough but making BP cartridges is most problematic with semiauto actions. It will gum them up fast with the residues.

I shoot BP with cowboy guns often and even a lever action can only keep it up for a few hundred rounds before it needs a good cleaning. Revolvers go on for a long time but experience trouble after a few hundred rounds, the cylinder starts sticking. Break open shotguns go the a long time. I haven't gotten one to fail yet but pump guns go about as long as lever guns. I imagine a bolt action would go forever since all of the crap goes out the muzzle.

I haven't used a semiauto with BP but I don't want t clean one using BP either. As noted the brass also suffers with BP and gets brittle. In general I only use BP for fun. It sucks as a propellent vs smokeless. The looser the action the better with BP so maybe an AK would do well? Straight bolw back actions should also do well. Those with narrow gas tubes, like an AR would be a nightmare.

You can get what you need, or make it, to make your own smokeless powder if you are good at chemistry like myself. I just don't see the point. You can find what you need at a good price if you look and are patient.

Please don't pay the scalpers, that will only prolong all of this and make it a regular source of income for these bottom feeders.

 

[oldfb]

This is turning into a BP thread which wasn't the original intention for my post. Lol

Here is another oddball thought, just how cheap are the rounds that businesses are getting to de-mil, reload and sell for profit.
It has to be a big production/operation to be pulling ammo apart and swapping components while still maintaining a profit. Unless I'm not understanding the concept from start to finish. It seems to be a very convoluted process because of the legal aspects for compliance.
Or are they paid to pull it apart and the components are a bonus?

 

[warthog]

They loose money on pulled components. The trouble is there is a ruling that prohibits the USA to sell its overruns to the US markets as rounds. It's the only way for the Services to sell off the overages of ammo to us here.