Snub Nose specific training

[BehindBlueI's]

But, but, but . . . I have to!

Okay, let me clarify. I wasn't thinking what you are thinking. I was thinking of a scenario where 5 shots doesn't solve the problem, whether it's because of missing, a determined assailant, body armor, whatever. Having more rounds allows you time to continue until the problem is solved or you can exploit other options. Without those rounds, your options are reduced and you may have less time to engage those remaining options.

These are all maybes. It's INGO!

Right. Each cartridge is a potential opportunity, it is not a unit of time. If you run through 16 like a sewing machine and the guy with 5 takes his time, the 5 may last more time than the 16. Much more likely, one side is down or fleeing before anyone has cranked off round #5, though. A relatively recent example involved 7 shots by the good guy. None hit. The bad guys were fleeing either at the sight or the first shot, depending on reaction time. Was 7 more "time" than 1? No. It was just more misses, and had no effect on the outcome (bad guys flee). That is extremely typical in random violence. More shots may sometimes be fired, but the first few decide the fight.

 

[Twangbanger]

...I see people say things like "it's a 4 second gun, I've got 16 rounds and a .25 second split time."...

I have never, ever, heard a single person say anything resembling this. Even on INGO . (Except now). I'll take your anecdotal word for it...but I think it's well understood by most people that each shot is an individual event, regardless of time.

...And, higher-capacity guns give you the potential for _more_ such events. Regardless of time.

...I was thinking of a scenario where 5 shots doesn't solve the problem, whether it's because of missing, a determined assailant, body armor, whatever. Having more rounds allows you time to continue until the problem is solved or you can exploit other options. Without those rounds, your options are reduced and you may have less time to engage those remaining options...

...A relatively recent example involved 7 shots by the good guy. None hit. The bad guys were fleeing either at the sight or the first shot, depending on reaction time. Was 7 more "time" than 1? No. It was just more misses, and had no effect on the outcome (bad guys flee). That is extremely typical in random violence. More shots may sometimes be fired, but the first few decide the fight.

You fellas (and me, and others) can cherry-pick scenarios to illustrate just about anything we want. But the fact remains: higher capacity gives you more options. Lower capacity gives you less. And that you can cherry-pick scenarios where those options might not be needed, does not change this fact.

Earlier in the tread, the idea of "tradeoffs" was brushed up against:

Gotta remember to first have a gun. It's sometimes easy to forget that some
of us carry in a non permissive environment. That boomerang shaped snub nose finds
itself easy to keep on your body...

...Some folks need more concealment, though, and the partner to the "I've never heard someone say they wish they had less ammo" is I've never heard anyone say "I wish I'd left my gun at home today."...

What clothing / holster combinations are involved in these situations you refer to, in which you seem to be suggesting that a revolver will get taken along, but an auto would be left home? Do they involve the use of a holster? Or are we getting into "pocket carry without holster" situations as the justification for why revolver might be better than an auto?

Just trying to get a feel for what we're specifically talking about here. I'm trying to figure out where it would be, that a real 5-shot revolver ** gets you a benefit which could not be had with, say, a Ruger LC9 with double-action trigger pull.

(** as opposed to the 3", 6-shot medium-frame Wiley Clapp GP100 BBI used in the above-mentioned "snubby" class, a gun which has comparable sight radius to a G19, holds far less ammo, and is heavier and consumes more room).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You fellas (and me, and others) can cherry-pick scenarios to illustrate just about anything we want. But the fact remains: higher capacity gives you more options. Lower capacity gives you less. And that you can cherry-pick scenarios where those options might not be needed, does not change this fact.

I'm not "cherry picking" and I'm not using scenarios to base my opinion on. I'm basing my opinion on real world shootings I, or someone in my office, have worked. Kicking out the targeted crime (domestic, criminal assassinating rival criminal) and LE shootings I'm at over 50 to base my opinion on. If your threat profile is no specific threat, your needs are different than someone with a specific and credible threat, yet the statistics typically do not (and have no way to) separate them.

Just trying to get a feel for what we're specifically talking about here. I'm trying to figure out where it would be, that a real 5-shot revolver ** gets you a benefit which could not be had with, say, a Ruger LC9 with double-action trigger pull.
.

Already covered:


...the S&W Shield is my usual "I don't know anything about you" recommendation for a carry gun if asked. I'm assuming the person will get a modicum of training on administrative handling and I think the Shield occupies that nice niche of big enough to shoot fairly easily and small enough they may actually carry it. For someone that won't bother to learn to maintain or safely handle the gun, the revolver is next up.


To expand on administrative handling advantage:

Revolvers are harder to shoot yourself with during administrative handling. You can see the cartridges in the cylinder, and it takes fewer steps to unload the gun. Roughly 1/3 of NDs resulting in injury or death are from either reversing the steps of dropping the magazine and then working the slide or simply forgetting to work the slide, then pulling the trigger to begin breakdown while muzzling themselves or someone else. A revolver removes that issue.

 

[Twangbanger]

...Already covered: To expand on administrative handling advantage:

Revolvers are harder to shoot yourself with during administrative handling. You can see the cartridges in the cylinder, and it takes fewer steps to unload the gun. Roughly 1/3 of NDs resulting in injury or death are from either reversing the steps of dropping the magazine and then working the slide or simply forgetting to work the slide, then pulling the trigger to begin breakdown while muzzling themselves or someone else. A revolver removes that issue.

I think you misunderstand. Because you did not answer my question:

Gotta remember to first have a gun. It's sometimes easy to forget that some
of us carry in a non permissive environment. That boomerang shaped snub nose finds
itself easy to keep on your body...

...Some folks need more concealment, though, and the partner to the "I've never heard someone say they wish they had less ammo" is I've never heard anyone say "I wish I'd left my gun at home today."...

These led to my posing the question:

...What clothing / holster combinations are involved in these situations you refer to, in which you seem to be suggesting that a revolver will get taken along, but an auto would be left home? Do they involve the use of a holster? Or are we getting into "pocket carry without holster" situations as the justification for why revolver might be better than an auto?...

Why do you and hog slayer think a snub revolver is more concealable and less likely to be left at home in certain cases? The last two quotations I provided clearly indicate you both think a snub is more concealable in certain situations. So I just want to know what those situations are, what clothing is involved, and is a holster being used? It sounds to me like you might be hinting that a small, double-action gun carried without a holster (eg, in a pocket? Or what?) is a good option in certain situations. And if you're not suggesting no-holster carry, then I am left to wonder how the revolver then becomes any better than an auto, again, from your previously-quoted standpoint of being more likely to carry it and not leave it at home.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I never said the j-frame, specifically, is easier to conceal. I was talking smaller guns in general, which tend to be lower capacity. J-frame, Shield, P938, XDS, etc. All are "low capacity" firearms, but are pretty common EDC guns because they are easier to carry than a Glock 17.

I use the LCR as an ankle gun and as a coat pocket gun. I do not do pants pocket carry.

 

[Twangbanger]

I never said the j-frame, specifically, is easier to conceal. I was talking smaller guns in general, which tend to be lower capacity. J-frame, Shield, P938, XDS, etc. All are "low capacity" firearms, but are pretty common EDC guns because they are easier to carry than a Glock 17.

I use the LCR as an ankle gun and as a coat pocket gun. I do not do pants pocket carry.

Understood. Since this is a "snubby" thread, I thought you and hog were specifically taking up for the snub. And I just could not think of a reason why a snub is less likely to be left home than, say, a Kahr CM9.

 

[Glocktard]

You put it in purple but I largely agree mainly for the reason the OP states. It is not a beginners gun, yet many who buy them are beginners but never bother to become anywhere near proficient in their use.

That's my main issue with them. I just got one to try out as a bug gun and I want to still become proficient with it. My 19 with x300 u is always with me.

Also, to everyone talking capacity I'm a big fan of executing Nike defense and running my happy ass away if I can.

 

[hog slayer]

This is getting frustrating. I've attempted two lengthy responses but keep getting told I have other more important things to do with my time and I inevitably lose my response

 

[hog slayer]

I don't pocket carry much. Not to say that I'm against it totally but I much prefer AIWB. I have DeSantis clip grips and usually go appendix without holster. I think the curves of the revolver are what makes the carry both concealable and comfortable enough. I've owned similar pistols to the LC9 but not the Ruger. I did NOT like them. I never could make reasonable hits and one of the few gins I've ever sold was a bodyguard 380.

 

[hog slayer]

I also own the shield and an xds and prefer AIWB with them as well. Both of them leave their mark after a day at work. They can be done, sure. Just not comfortably. I am proficient with them, though and that remains as a top priority.

 

[hog slayer]

I will go on record to say the j frame is easier to conceal AND make timely hits AND fire a respectable projectile in my experience

 

[hog slayer]

Let's clarify one other tidbit, I don't run from a fight. My freedom and my life are my two greatest possessions and both are available for a just and worthy sacrifice. Not to be thrown away or taken lightly, but requiring regular evaluation and effort to ensure I am prepared and that I am capable of remaining focused enough to make that decision.

 

[Glocktard]

Let's clarify one other tidbit, I don't run from a fight. My freedom and my life are my two greatest possessions and both are available for a just and worthy sacrifice. Not to be thrown away or taken lightly, but requiring regular evaluation and effort to ensure I am prepared and that I am capable of remaining focused enough to make that decision.

That's a fair point but if I get mugged by someone and I think that I can throw my wallet at him and run I would 10 times out of 10. No reason to smoke check a dude if you can avoid it.This is starting to get off topic though.

 

[Tinman]

I'm not going to jump into the snubs suck or don't suck for defensive use.

To answer the OP's original question, go look up Michael Debethencourt over at snubtraining.com He is arguably one of if not the best snubby guy in the business. Another good resource to look up would be Claude Werner He runs under the blog name "the Tactical Professor" The next option would be Sherman House over at the blog Revolver Science.

One last option for you is do a search for the 2005 Snubby Summit. There's a bunch of YouTube content out there on the different blocks of instruction, and the different trainers that presented.

That should get you a good start.

Tinman....

 

[szorn]

Does anyone know of someone teaching snub nose specific classes or DVD's? Or maybe a really good revolver class? It seems a lot of people get a j frame for a first gun and they are defiantly not a beginners gun in my opinion and I was hoping there was a resource I could suggest to someone to visit.

If you are willing to travel I would highly recommend Michael De Bethencourt in MA. He specializes in the defensive use of snubbies. His knowledge and skill is top notch and I wouldn't necessarily listen to the naysayers about snubbies. When properly trained it's not the type or capacity of the tool that matters, it's the mind-set of the user that counts.

http://snubtraining.com/


Steve