So, do unions hate the military, or just freedom?

[Joe Williams]

A union worker was fired for wearing a shirt that had the name of his son's aircraft carrier, the USS George H.W. Bush, on it.

This leads me to the question I asked in my thread title.

Do unions hate the military? So much so that merely having a son in the military and showing support for him is cause to be fired?

Or do they hate freedom, and as such are waging economic warfare against American workers that dare wear wear a shirt union leaders think supports a former President they do not like?

The News Blog with Eric Spillman: Man Fired for Wearing Bush Sweatshirt at Obama Rally - KTLA.COM

 

[Jay]

Unions are not in favor of anything they cannot completely control.

 

[CorvetteTom]

As an ex-UAW member of 16 years... there are plenty of ex-military in unions and plenty of military kids of union members. I must say that corruption is running rampant in union leadership. They believe that they are all powerful and our constitutional rights are set aside just so they can socialize this country.

Before I get flamed by other union members, THINK about what they are doing and how they go about it. Don't let that hand that's feeding you allow you believe they are all good. How could the Candy Man ever be bad?

In today's world Unions = Socialism... PERIOD!

 

[car06281]

Unions

And now some of them are pushing to go multi-national. In the end it will be just like it is with the big multi-national corporations. There will not be any patriotic loyalty to the US. Everything will be about the survival of the organization period.

 

[Eddie]

When you look at a union, look at its pension fund. How many relatives of the leaders are receiving pensions? That will tell you a lot, especially when you see lots of young relatives receiving pensions.

 

[snapping turtle]

nternational Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts. They are the guys who set up stages and lighting and microphones. Union yes. A little weird most likely. In L.A california. A liberal job in a liberal state.

He will file a grievance and be back at work nearly instantly. Remember the union does not hire or fire they are a job broker. His supervisor fired him. Union do not hire or fire. You don't work for the Union you work for an employer than bargains with the union.

I am a union worker, IBEW LOCAL 481 Indianapolis. I work hard for my money just like everybody else. Take away my union representation and I can still make a good living because i work hard. Go ahead and rant all you want.

I do get a little mad with all the union bashing here. I understand your free to state your opinions and I value your right to do so. Just please try to understand what you are bashing before you do so.

The same job I do for the union pays 10-13 dollars an hour at comcast or bright house cable company, You ever try to raise a family, pay for a house and car and send your kids to school or collage on ten bucks an hour.

Do i agree with the union on all levels. Not at all. Do I agree with Aiming Higher PAC (GOV Daniel's PAC) being mainly funded by Non union construction companies attempting to make Indiana a right to work state (right to work for a wage that you can't raise a family on) NO. Most people hear the adds and think some lady named Amy higherpak is paying for them.

End of rant. Here i go posting in the political section of the board again.

Back to what I want to talk about what 100 dollar 22 rifle will outshoot a 1000 dollar rifle.

 

[88GT]

Just please try to understand what you are bashing before you do so.

The idea that unionism is extortion since by your own argument, the job and/or the skill level/work ethic of the employee does not meet the criteria of being paid at the higher wage absent the strong-arm tactics of threat of force (or destruction of one's life in the form of his business)?

Yeah, I think I understand it quite well.

The same job I do for the union pays 10-13 dollars an hour at comcast or bright house cable company, You ever try to raise a family, pay for a house and car and send your kids to school or collage on ten bucks an hour.

Apparently Comcast employees are doing it.

 

[Doug]

Unions do not hate the military or freedom.
They hate anything and everything that is not Democrat/Progressive/Socialist.
They demand the freedom to persecute anyone who does not support the Obamessiah in every way.
They even beat up vendors at rallies if the flags don't directly support their agenda.
You disagree with them at your peril; they believe stomping you into the pavement is exercising free speech.

 

[Bill of Rights]

nternational Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts. They are the guys who set up stages and lighting and microphones. Union yes. A little weird most likely. In L.A california. A liberal job in a liberal state.

He will file a grievance and be back at work nearly instantly. Remember the union does not hire or fire they are a job broker. His supervisor fired him. Union do not hire or fire. You don't work for the Union you work for an employer than bargains with the union.

I am a union worker, IBEW LOCAL 481 Indianapolis. I work hard for my money just like everybody else. Take away my union representation and I can still make a good living because i work hard. Go ahead and rant all you want.

I do get a little mad with all the union bashing here. I understand your free to state your opinions and I value your right to do so. Just please try to understand what you are bashing before you do so.

The same job I do for the union pays 10-13 dollars an hour at comcast or bright house cable company, You ever try to raise a family, pay for a house and car and send your kids to school or collage on ten bucks an hour.

Do i agree with the union on all levels. Not at all. Do I agree with Aiming Higher PAC (GOV Daniel's PAC) being mainly funded by Non union construction companies attempting to make Indiana a right to work state (right to work for a wage that you can't raise a family on) NO. Most people hear the adds and think some lady named Amy higherpak is paying for them.

End of rant. Here i go posting in the political section of the board again.

Back to what I want to talk about what 100 dollar 22 rifle will outshoot a 1000 dollar rifle.

I understand where you're coming from. I disagree with you, but I do understand. Let me ask you a couple of questions in return:

Is the job you do worth so much more than that $10-$13/hr that Comcast and/or Brighthouse pays because you have a card in your wallet that says you paid dues to an organization? Would it not be better (generally, not necessarily for you personally) to have the market dictate the pay and to have people paid in accordance with their ability and experience?

There was a time in this country when people thought, spoke, and acted in accordance with what was best for all, with what benefited their community as a whole, present and more importantly, future, not just with the attitude of "What's in it for me?" I can understand wanting to make sure your "bread is buttered", so to speak; after all, charity begins at home. Where we differ is that you seem to me to be saying that you want to put all the butter on your bread and leave the scrapings at the bottom of the tub for others.



Oh, and to answer your question.... The $100 rifle with an effective marksman behind it will shoot better than a $1000 rifle without one.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[U.S. Patriot]

That is a freaking joke if you ask me.

 

[snapping turtle]

Oh, and to answer your question.... The $100 rifle with an effective marksman behind it will shoot better than a $1000 rifle without one.

Blessings,
Bil[\quote]

You my friend are true on both counts. I do think the a effective marksman with a 100 dollar rifle outshoots a ineffective one with a 1000 dollar rifle. Same thing with my wage. I do see many lazy co-workers take there hours and do almost nothing. They don't last long or travel to the next project. They are the ones still waiting to a hiring call that may never come. Just don't judge all workers as lazy just because they are union either.

Maybe comparing comcast workers to what I do was oversimplification.I could have misrepresented the skill of a few comcast workers. The ones that used to service my area were not worth 10 a hour but they must have some good ones around that are worth what I get paid.

If you come up with a steady job that I can bring home XX,000 a year with paid benefits and a pension let me know where to apply and I will take the job. I am always looking to better myself. If I get convinced that is is a good deal I would jump ship off the union instantly.

 

[Doug]

I understand where you're coming from. I disagree with you, but I do understand. Let me ask you a couple of questions in return:

Is the job you do worth so much more than that $10-$13/hr that Comcast and/or Brighthouse pays because you have a card in your wallet that says you paid dues to an organization? Would it not be better (generally, not necessarily for you personally) to have the market dictate the pay and to have people paid in accordance with their ability and experience?

There was a time in this country when people thought, spoke, and acted in accordance with what was best for all, with what benefited their community as a whole, present and more importantly, future, not just with the attitude of "What's in it for me?" I can understand wanting to make sure your "bread is buttered", so to speak; after all, charity begins at home. Where we differ is that you seem to me to be saying that you want to put all the butter on your bread and leave the scrapings at the bottom of the tub for others.



Oh, and to answer your question.... The $100 rifle with an effective marksman behind it will shoot better than a $1000 rifle without one.

Blessings,
Bill

I believe there was a time when people valued honesty and fairness more than money. They still looked out for themselves, but they didn't sell their integrity for a dollar. Some people still live this way.
Also, taxes used to be low enough that they could do acts of charity and help their fellow man. They didn't take a "collectivist" viewpoint that people had a right to charity, but they gave to those they deemed deserving. This is not the same as "doing what is best for the community as a whole," but it is also not "cut throat."

 

[doug1980]

I'm a Shop Steward (Teamsters 959) at my work, which happens to be on a Military Base. I have never seen or heard anything negative from the Union about the Military. What I find with most stories like this is, not all the facts are fully known. Did they really fire him for the shirt, I highly doubt it. But then again with the Economy and Job Market the way it is, companies and the Union can be very picky because there are dozens of other people begging for jobs. The Union, just like everything else, has flaws and isn't perfect. This is my first Union Job since Southern IN is anti Union and I have to say that I like having someone on my side to represent me if needed.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Oh, and to answer your question.... The $100 rifle with an effective marksman behind it will shoot better than a $1000 rifle without one.

Blessings,
Bill

You my friend are true on both counts. I do think the a effective marksman with a 100 dollar rifle outshoots a ineffective one with a 1000 dollar rifle. Same thing with my wage. I do see many lazy co-workers take there hours and do almost nothing. They don't last long or travel to the next project. They are the ones still waiting to a hiring call that may never come. Just don't judge all workers as lazy just because they are union either.

Maybe comparing comcast workers to what I do was oversimplification.I could have misrepresented the skill of a few comcast workers. The ones that used to service my area were not worth 10 a hour but they must have some good ones around that are worth what I get paid.

If you come up with a steady job that I can bring home XX,000 a year with paid benefits and a pension let me know where to apply and I will take the job. I am always looking to better myself. If I get convinced that is is a good deal I would jump ship off the union instantly.

I think you may have missed my point. My point is that if the market determines that someone doing what you do (whether that be installing cable or custom designing of circuit boards to control surgical robotics) is worth $10/hr, that's what it should be worth, not artificially inflated because it's a "union shop".

I'm a paramedic. I'm in my 25th year of doing what I love doing. What would you guess that my pay is? Guess lower, I can almost guarantee you guessed too high. That time, too. I'm not going to get into specifics, but unless I work either a second job or a -ton of overtime, I can't pay my bills each month, and it's not because I live high on the hog. Should I try to organize a union to artificially inflate that? How much more should my community's taxpayers have to pay because I stuck a union dues card in my wallet? The point is that where I work, the market allows X amount. Yes, I have benefits made available at a reduced cost. Yes, I have a pension that I pay into. Those things are now set where my community can afford to provide them. No, I'm not b****ing; I didn't go into EMS to get rich. Those who do don't stay in it.

In a private model, if again, the market sets that a private employer can pay his employees $10/hr, why should he have to raise his prices and become less competitive in the market because his employees are union?

How much better would it be if those employees had said when they came in, "I won't work for less than $15/hr." Sure, the first few would not get the job, but eventually, the owner of that business would see that without employees, he has no business and at $10/hr, he's getting no employees. He has two choices: raise the pay (or other compensation) he'll offer or go out of business. That's the free market at work. It takes people who aren't willing to settle for less and an economy that encourages growth (in short, an economy not over-regulated by artificial "controls"; governmental or "collectively-bargained")



Blessings,
Bill

 

[Loco179]

I'm a paramedic. I'm in my 25th year of doing what I love doing. What would you guess that my pay is? Guess lower, I can almost guarantee you guessed too high. That time, too. I'm not going to get into specifics, but unless I work either a second job or a -ton of overtime, I can't pay my bills each month, and it's not because I live high on the hog. Should I try to organize a union to artificially inflate that? How much more should my community's taxpayers have to pay because I stuck a union dues card in my wallet? The point is that where I work, the market allows X amount. Yes, I have benefits made available at a reduced cost. Yes, I have a pension that I pay into. Those things are now set where my community can afford to provide them. No, I'm not b****ing; I didn't go into EMS to get rich. Those who do don't stay in it.

Pet Peeve being a firefighter/paramedic and a union member I have a few things to say about this. It is not artificially inflating because you put a card into your wallet. Being the service you provide for your community you should expect your community to support people that deal with their problems. Public Safety Unions do great things for their communities. All we ask is we can provide for our family's. Keeping good quality people is part of it.

Until Paramedics face reality and get involved ( like nursing did ) they will always be a bastard child. The easiest way is to get a union started and unite. Your community can afford to support emergency services. There are tons of ways to support them

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Pet Peeve being a firefighter/paramedic and a union member I have a few things to say about this. It is not artificially inflating because you put a card into your wallet. Being the service you provide for your community you should expect your community to support people that deal with their problems. Public Safety Unions do great things for their communities. All we ask is we can provide for our family's. Keeping good quality people is part of it.

Until Paramedics face reality and get involved ( like nursing did ) they will always be a bastard child. The easiest way is to get a union started and unite. Your community can afford to support emergency services. There are tons of ways to support them

Is it time for our monthly union love thread already?

So you think that it's OK to have the providers of government services join together in a plot to extort taxpayers who have no option but to pay else lose their property and liberty under penalty of law? Is that what you're saying?

Because if it is, here's my response. If you son't make enough money and you want more quit your job and get one that pays you better. Don't rip off your employer (me).

Bill, thank you for your service provided without the need to join an extortion ring. While you probably should be paid better, you understand the free market.

Have a nice day.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Although I am vehemently anti-union, we need to understand why unions came into being and what their collective mentality is. When companies controlled who got hired and what they got paid, they frequently didn't look out for their employees. When workers tried to force higher wages by organizing and job actions, the companies hired thugs to break up their protests and strikes. So the unions were born in violence and coercion and confrontation and that's what they are comfortable with. With violence and coercion comes criminality, usually of the blue-collar sort, so it isn't surprising that many large unions are run very like organized criminal gangs. Guys like jmarriott, doug1980, and loco179 are very comfortable putting themselves in the hands of union bosses who won't lose nearly as much as they will if their company goes out of business.

If unions were seen by most of us as such a good deal, you wouldn't see overall union membership declining in the US (except in government) and you also wouldn't see people trying to pass "Card Check" to remove the private ballot from unionization votes, so as to be able to intimidate non-union workers.

Strike wages and union unemployment wages are as much a Ponzi Scheme as Social Security.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Pet Peeve being a firefighter/paramedic and a union member I have a few things to say about this. It is not artificially inflating because you put a card into your wallet. Being the service you provide for your community you should expect your community to support people that deal with their problems. Public Safety Unions do great things for their communities. All we ask is we can provide for our family's. Keeping good quality people is part of it.

Until Paramedics face reality and get involved ( like nursing did ) they will always be a bastard child. The easiest way is to get a union started and unite. Your community can afford to support emergency services. There are tons of ways to support them

No matter how you slice it, if they're going to pay me more money, they're going to have to soak my taxpayers for more to do it. This is a county that didn't even have ALS until a year ago and got it by a private company offering to help subsidize the startup. They could as easily choose to drop ALS again and return to relying on surrounding counties to provide it, and then where am I? Yep. Out of work and making nothing at all. My whole service has room for 12 people full time (presently five EMT-P including the director) and several part timers. Even at 100% participation, we're not exactly an imposing force, and in our county, I can guarantee that unionizing would be very negatively viewed. No thanks. I prefer the free market being allowed to work, rather than attempting to coerce by threat an action not otherwise supported. Just because it's commonplace wherever you work does not make it right, IMHO.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Eddie]

No matter how you slice it, if they're going to pay me more money, they're going to have to soak my taxpayers for more to do it. This is a county that didn't even have ALS until a year ago and got it by a private company offering to help subsidize the startup. They could as easily choose to drop ALS again and return to relying on surrounding counties to provide it, and then where am I? Yep. Out of work and making nothing at all. My whole service has room for 12 people full time (presently five EMT-P including the director) and several part timers. Even at 100% participation, we're not exactly an imposing force, and in our county, I can guarantee that unionizing would be very negatively viewed. No thanks. I prefer the free market being allowed to work, rather than attempting to coerce by threat an action not otherwise supported. Just because it's commonplace wherever you work does not make it right, IMHO.

Blessings,
Bill

Ambulance services are weird animals to talk about in the context of unions and ALS. There are typical market contracts out there like a nursing home that contracts a particular service to do all of their transports, but when you get into ALS you are normally going to be looking at a city or county. At this level you'll often see competitive bidding/proposals where two or more services are offering bids/proposals to the government to try and get a contract to perform for a term of years. This creates a downward pressure (the government is paying the ambulance service to provide service) to offer the lowest bid they can while still hoping to make a profit on the contract. ALS is an upward pressure because it costs more (last round of bids I looked at paramedic service quadrupled the costs). Add to that the government entity seeking bids or proposals might specify things like how many trucks, where they are located and even how new the trucks need to be. All of that skews the traditional union equation of skilled workers banding together to negotiate for a higher wage. The market for ALS is in providing it to the government and the government is going to specify what it needs and probably set pretty specific guidelines unlike a free market.

I think a better analysis is to look at unions in a traditional sense. When you had a group of skilled laborers who got together and agreed to sell their skills as a group in order to negotiate for a higher wage that was unionism in the pure sense. I see nothing wrong with skilled labor (or even unskilled if they can pull it off) banding together to sell their services as a group.

However, I feel that this "pure" unionism has gone awry. Setting aside things like criminal infiltration of the unions, abuse of pension programs and out and out embezzlement of funds, the main problem I see is the body of laws that grew up to require management to negotiate with unions.

In a "pure" state, labor would withhold their services unless management met their demands. Management could choose to negotiate, find another source of labor or close its doors. I'm fine with that. The problem I have with the current system is that, much like the paragraph that opened this post, the government got involved and took away management's options to either close its doors or seek labor services elsewhere. Once you start taking away those options the system starts to skew. In forced negotiations labor is able to milk management to the point that the system begins to collapse. When management cannot turn a profit then the doors have to close. Letting the government force management to negotiate had the long term effect of killing the goose that was laying the golden eggs.

 

[ATOMonkey]

For every union guy that is overpaid, there is another one that is underpaid. Which one are you? Just food for thought.