So Pointing a Gun is Justification for Deadly Force

[Leo]

If the dead man was a law abiding, productive taxpayer and peaceful member of society, it would certainly raise more questions. Unfortunately, these cases are tugs with a history of violence against peaceful members of society. From a psych point of view, this will always be a lot harder sell.

The thinly masked emotional words like teenager, along with continual posting of pictures that are 5 or 6 years out date are used to further manipulate the low functioning masses. Over 6 feet tall and old enough to vote, is a man not a kid. I was there when the selective services were calling up my peer group for Vietnam. Even the little scrawny, pencil necked geeks were given government haircuts, government underwear, and an M-16. When they were sent to battle, they were called "MEN", even though they were "teenagers".

 

[billt]

I can not see anything different happening in this scenario.
Point one at me and see what happens.

This is what police are trained to do. Correctly, I might add. I would do the same. It's the only play to make when you're talking about a second or less to process the threat. How many kids have been killed pointing toy guns at cops? You don't point a gun, or anything that remotely looks like a gun at anyone, without expecting that individual to shoot back if they have the means to. All cops do. Whoever made the statement was echoing standard police practice that has been in place for decades.....And will remain in place. This regardless of how many "innocents" get killed in the process of testing this action with a far more stupid one.

 

[churchmouse]

This is what police are trained to do. Correctly, I might add. I would do the same. It's the only play to make when you're talking about a second or less to process the threat. How many kids have been killed pointing toy guns at cops? You don't point a gun, or anything that remotely looks like a gun at anyone, without expecting that individual to shoot back if they have the means to. All cops do. Whoever made the statement was echoing standard police practice that has been in place for decades.....And will remain in place. This regardless of how many "innocents" get killed in the process of testing this action with a far more stupid one.

When these thing happen and then come up for discussion it is easy to see how folks minds work.....or do not.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Reasonable cops aren't robbers. This cop was out of his mind. He snapped and he was no longer rational. In my opinion, at that point he ceased being a police officer and became a criminal. Could you reasonably tell that no one in that crowd was in fear for their life?

Did anyone react in fear? If you believed someone were about to kill you, would you continue to approach him and ask his name? Would you continue to banter with him? No, because even the folks out protesting "police brutality" know that he's going to play by the rules and isn't about to murder them. Just the same as the gate guard may have the wrong car, but you realize he's not going to shoot you if you comply because there's a reason he's doing it. Maybe he just went crazy and thinks you slept with his wife and is about to pump you full of 5.56, but that's not what you assume. Why? Because you know that the odds are he's playing by the rules and getting assassinated while complying is about the same odds as winning the Powerball on the day the NFL drafts you.

I believe several people, including me, said he was wrong in his actions. That doesn't mean he was a viable threat, though, or that this situation is comparable to pointing a gun in other contexts. Oddly enough, you're ready to rep me in one thread when I point a gun at a SUV containing completely innocent folks who just happen to be driving the wrong car. In their mind, they are just speeding if they are committing any crime at all, and suddenly I'm there pointing a gun and giving them commands, along with other armed men. You seem to see the context there, but from the motorist's perspective at the time, what was different? I was pointing a gun at innocent people, after all. They had no idea there vehicle matched a shooting suspect in that immediate area and time. They had no idea what my justification was, if any. As far as they knew at the time they were guilty of nothing other than possibly speeding. Yet they complied and seemed more confused than scared.

My own experience, especially around people who've interacted with police, is that people aren't afraid of the gun. They know you won't shoot them unless they threaten you, point a weapon, etc. Point a pistol at Johnny Thug and he'll ask if you're going to shoot him because he knows you won't. He'll continue to ignore commands, he won't reach for his pockets but he won't put his hands up, he won't advance, but he may bolt. He may hate you, but he knows the rules you play by. Point a Taser at Johnny, though, and suddenly you have his attention. No more ignoring commands, no more staring off into the distance gauging if he can make a run for it, suddenly he's quite satisfied with his hands up. He knows the rules for a Tasing are more lax and that you WILL tase him even if you WON'T shoot him. Those people showed the exact same reaction. They know he's not about to shoot them, they continue to fail to comply, they continue to engage verbally.

 

[billt]

This is what can happen when an indecisive cop starts dicking around with a dangerous armed individual. He should have stopped shouting and started shooting long before he did. Indecisiveness, coupled with very poor marksmanship cost this poor cop his life.

[video=youtube;k8-ycSkoYfc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8-ycSkoYfc[/video]

 

[jamil]

Did anyone react in fear? If you believed someone were about to kill you, would you continue to approach him and ask his name?

ETA: in regards to the other video where the cop kinda lost his marbles:

We have no idea how close the hipster dude was to getting blown away. I think he was just being young and naive. If I were in the exact situation and a cop pointed his weapon in my face and said he was going to ****ing kill me, with that look on his face, I'd have damn sure taken his word for it, and not smart off like that idiot did.

But even though that is a self defense situation, as horn said, it'd be unwise to shoot in self defense because it is certain the other cops would open fire on me. I would be thinking the best action would be to try to reason with him that I'm no threat and just hope that the other cops notice and get to him before he goes off.

But unlike horn, I don't see it as much a criminal action on the part of the cop as some kind of insanity. That cop had issues.

 

[hornadylnl]

Did anyone react in fear? If you believed someone were about to kill you, would you continue to approach him and ask his name? Would you continue to banter with him? No, because even the folks out protesting "police brutality" know that he's going to play by the rules and isn't about to murder them. Just the same as the gate guard may have the wrong car, but you realize he's not going to shoot you if you comply because there's a reason he's doing it. Maybe he just went crazy and thinks you slept with his wife and is about to pump you full of 5.56, but that's not what you assume. Why? Because you know that the odds are he's playing by the rules and getting assassinated while complying is about the same odds as winning the Powerball on the day the NFL drafts you.

I believe several people, including me, said he was wrong in his actions. That doesn't mean he was a viable threat, though, or that this situation is comparable to pointing a gun in other contexts. Oddly enough, you're ready to rep me in one thread when I point a gun at a SUV containing completely innocent folks who just happen to be driving the wrong car. In their mind, they are just speeding if they are committing any crime at all, and suddenly I'm there pointing a gun and giving them commands, along with other armed men. You seem to see the context there, but from the motorist's perspective at the time, what was different? I was pointing a gun at innocent people, after all. They had no idea there vehicle matched a shooting suspect in that immediate area and time. They had no idea what my justification was, if any. As far as they knew at the time they were guilty of nothing other than possibly speeding. Yet they complied and seemed more confused than scared.

My own experience, especially around people who've interacted with police, is that people aren't afraid of the gun. They know you won't shoot them unless they threaten you, point a weapon, etc. Point a pistol at Johnny Thug and he'll ask if you're going to shoot him because he knows you won't. He'll continue to ignore commands, he won't reach for his pockets but he won't put his hands up, he won't advance, but he may bolt. He may hate you, but he knows the rules you play by. Point a Taser at Johnny, though, and suddenly you have his attention. No more ignoring commands, no more staring off into the distance gauging if he can make a run for it, suddenly he's quite satisfied with his hands up. He knows the rules for a Tasing are more lax and that you WILL tase him even if you WON'T shoot him. Those people showed the exact same reaction. They know he's not about to shoot them, they continue to fail to comply, they continue to engage verbally.

No protocol allows that cop to act the way he was or allows him to endanger lives like he did. When a person loses their mind like he did, you have no reason to believe he has control over his actions. The picture of the guy with the rifle on a tripod that has the media riled up isn't comparable to the stark raving mad officer. In the situation you described, were you frothing at the mouth and out of control? Did your fellow officers have to take control of your rifle and remove you from the scene?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No protocol allows that cop to act the way he was or allows him to endanger lives like he did. When a person loses their mind like he did, you have no reason to believe he has control over his actions. The picture of the guy with the rifle on a tripod that has the media riled up isn't comparable to the stark raving mad officer. In the situation you described, were you frothing at the mouth and out of control? Did your fellow officers have to take control of your rifle and remove you from the scene?

Are we using facts known afterward or immediately apparent at the time of the threat? Decisions to use deadly force don't get the benefit of hindsight.

Just so we aren't arguing past each other, let me make my position as clear as possible.

1) The officer was not justified absent some extremely unlikely facts that aren't readily apparent.
2) Multiple officers stated as such, yet you pretend all we "INGOers" did is make excuses. Explaining why the behavior likely occurred is not the same as condoning it, which was also stated in the original post.
3) It was not a deadly force situation for the protesters based on a reasonable fear for your life. I would not accept a self defense claim where someone is continuing to banter and approach their "attacker" because that's not a reasonable fear for your life action.
4) It is not comparable to the incidents in Chicago in your original post. Its intellectual dishonest to suggest it is.

 

[SSGSAD]

Probely if you point your gun in a direction of anyone who possesses a firearm will get you shot. Not just LEO's.

MY thoughts, EXACTLY !!!!! If a weapon is pointed at ME, or one of "MINE", I will DEFEND !!!!!

 

[mrjarrell]

So, Officer Go **** Yourself was forced to resign and another was fired.

Officers from St. Ann, Glendale off the job after actions during Ferguson protests : News

 

[hornadylnl]

So, Officer Go **** Yourself was forced to resign and another was fired.

Officers from St. Ann, Glendale off the job after actions during Ferguson protests : News

Absolutely amazing. Since he resigned, does he still get his pension? Not buying the urine and gun story. If true, why didn't he attempt to apprehend them?

 

[Denny347]

Absolutely amazing. Since he resigned, does he still get his pension?

I dono, no idea who their pension is administered by and their rules. Need to ask an MO officer.

 

[2001FZ1]

Absolutely amazing. Since he resigned, does he still get his pension? Not buying the urine and gun story. If true, why didn't he attempt to apprehend them?

Its probably one of the agreements in the police union that he gets his pension. He would need to be convicted of felony to lose it. (just my guess)

 

[CLowe]

Its probably one of the agreements in the police union that he gets his pension. He would need to be convicted of felony to lose it. (just my guess)

That's what I would guess .
No conviction , no loss of pension .

 

[billt]

That's what I would guess .
No conviction , no loss of pension .

And rightfully so. If you lost any other job because of poor performance, and no criminal act happened in the process, you wouldn't lose your pension. So why should he?

 

[MrsGungho]

And rightfully so. If you lost any other job because of poor performance, and no criminal act happened in the process, you wouldn't lose your pension. So why should he?

well this is different, it's officer go **** yourself.

 

[Fargo]

And rightfully so. If you lost any other job because of poor performance, and no criminal act happened in the process, you wouldn't lose your pension. So why should he?

How do you figure he lost his job due to "poor performance"?

How do you figure that "no criminal act" happened?

 

[jamil]

Okay then. It's a crime for civilians to point a gun at people and threaten their lives having no threat to themselves, but doing that as a cop may get you fired if someone happens to videotape it and it goes viral.

I generally support the police. I think they have a dangerous, often thankless job to do. But they have to be at least as accountable for the laws they enforce as citizens. If they're caught speeding outside the performance of their duties they should get what citizens get. Certainly the same goes for something like this.

 

[hornadylnl]

The cop who shoved a reporter and had his Oathkeepers speech go viral gets to retire as well.

Cop who threatened to 'kill everybody' expected to get full pension | MSNBC

I don't think this guy should be fired on his comments alone but pushing a reporter was over the top.

The "rabid dog" cop seems to be the least offensive and he's the only one fired.

 

[billt]

How do you figure that "no criminal act" happened?

Simple. He was relieved of his job, and no charges were filed. I'm not arguing that charges shouldn't have been filed, and perhaps they still may be. The fact is thus far they haven't been. If that stands, why should he lose pension money for time he put in up until the incident? All of which was all earned per pension rules.