Something I noticed doing Bill drills

[BehindBlueI's]

From the holster, 6 shots, trying to keep everything "A" box.

GP100 MC from an Avenger style holster:

3.47 (5a/1b)

P229 from Bladetech Eclipse OWB holster:

3.38 clean

P226 from same Bladetech:

3.01 clean

I'm admittedly out of practice with the revolver as I've been working nearly exclusively with my Sigs except for some playing around at 70y with it. I'm just surprised the heavier .357 magnum recoil and longer DAO trigger didn't make much difference. 12y and 25y, I'm thinking it'd be more of a difference. I didn't get to check because I'd burned most of my .357 playing with the steels before I though to try the Bill drill. However, my group was staggered more up and down with the .357. Left right, less.

The other thing I noticed is I like the feel of the P229 better, but the timer and targets say I shoot the P226 better.

 

[Woobie]

Let's see, how can we turn this into a 1911 vs Glock debate? Hey man, if you're good you're good. Pretty sure if you gave Jerry Miculek a SAA, he would shoot circles around me with a full Cajun CZ. Still, I'm with you. I would have expected a greater difference than that. Maybe I've read too many articles by gun "experts".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Let's see, how can we turn this into a 1911 vs Glock debate? Hey man, if you're good you're good. Pretty sure if you gave Jerry Miculek a SAA, he would shoot circles around me with a full Cajun CZ. Still, I'm with you. I would have expected a greater difference than that. Maybe I've read too many articles by gun "experts".

"You would have shot a 2.5 with a 1911 and a 5.0 with a Glock"
"No, the 1911 would have failed to feed."
"No, the Glock would have exploded."

That should do it.

 

[BugI02]

I've been pondering a similar, but who knows if related, issue. I took a 1911 with me to the range for the first time in a while. Shooting 3 fast round groups I shot better unsupported than I did in normal stance. Similarly the supported shots were spread vertically with little right left deviation with a bigger spread above than below the 10. The unsupported shots grouped tighter, more like I would have expected to shoot supported. This was 38SA so flatter shooting than 45. If you get any idea what was going on in your case to spread things vertically I'd be intersted to know.

 

[looney2ns]

Man, you just can't resist rubbing the Sig goodness in our faces can you?

 

[TheDude]

For those who know not the "Bill drill".


pistol-training.com » Bill Drill

pistol-training.com » Bill Drill 2

 

[SSGSAD]

Whatever happened to double tap, and 2 to the chest, and one above the vest ?????

 

[BugI02]

Mozambique Drill. "Two in the body, one in the head, makes damn sure your target is dead."

 

[cedartop]

Whatever happened to double tap, and 2 to the chest, and one above the vest ?????

The Bill drill is just that, a drill. Something you practice to recognize improvements in your shooting ability. The two things you are talking about, can definitely be used as drills, but they have a real world purpose. I will say though that double taps are passe and have been mostly replaced by controlled pairs.

 

[Bfish]

The Bill drill is just that, a drill. Something you practice to recognize improvements in your shooting ability. The two things you are talking about, can definitely be used as drills, but they have a real world purpose. I will say though that double taps are passe and have been mostly replaced by controlled pairs.

When you teach class are you teaching two to the body and one to the head or are you teaching to "zip them up?" Just curious, I was thinking you do more combative training but I was just curious.

 

[Roadie]

Whatever happened to TRIPLE tap, and 2 to the chest, and one above the vest ?????

FTFY.

 

[cedartop]

When you teach class are you teaching two to the body and one to the head or are you teaching to "zip them up?" Just curious, I was thinking you do more combative training but I was just curious.

That could be a whole thread of it own. To me there is nothing wrong with the zipper if it is not used as an excuse for poor marksmanship. I will say it was introduced to me as part of point shooting so that is sorta where I have left it. The body armor drill is a sound concept but some believe you shouldn't program yourself for just one shot to the head in case it doesn't work. I generally teach a burst to the body and a burst to the face.

As far as Combative, we do teach SA through deadly force with a lot of verbal and h2h skills in between, but I am very much a firearms instructor. I taught basic through advanced rifle, basic through intermediate pistol, red dot pistol, point shooting, and cqb with Suarez International. I am also a graduate of the Rangemaster basic and advanced instructor courses and will be assisting Tom Givens with the Instructor Development class in Nappannnee, IN this fall.

 

[Tactically Fat]

FTFY.

Why stop at three?

My may-as-well-be-unqualified opinion: Shoot as many as it takes.

Counting your shots isn't practical - it won't be done in a real-life situation.

All three of the formal handgun training classes I've had - it was "burst". And to mix-up how many a "burst" meant. 3-4 on one "up", then 5-7 on the next one. Chastisement for only 2 shots.

5 shots to the solar plexus of a dude wearing soft body armor MAY knock him down or even "out". May not take him completely out of the fight. 1 shot to the noggin may not take him out of the fight.

If you've gotten to the point of shooting - shoot until you don't need to shoot any more.

 

[darinb]

I did some Bill drills last week and kept everything in the acceptable range with a glock 19 that had a trigger job but when I did the same with my beretta nano not at all the same results. The nano DA revolver like trigger is going to take time to get used to.

 

[iChokePeople]

I did some Bill drills last week and kept everything in the acceptable range with a glock 19 that had a trigger job but when I did the same with my beretta nano not at all the same results. The nano DA revolver like trigger is going to take time to get used to.

This isn't just to/about you... It still amazes me how many people choose THIS path, fighting through the issues of running a pocket gun, rather than finding a way to carry a real fighting pistol. IMHO, one of the tidbits of valuable info that shooting Bill (or others) can provide is that honest feedback that maybe we should really give serious thought to some of our choices and assumptions.

 

[cedartop]

This isn't just to/about you... It still amazes me how many people choose THIS path, fighting through the issues of running a pocket gun, rather than finding a way to carry a real fighting pistol. IMHO, one of the tidbits of valuable info that shooting Bill (or others) can provide is that honest feedback that maybe we should really give serious thought to some of our choices and assumptions.

Echo the not aimed at any one individual, but I couldn't agree more. Find a reasonable metric and make sure that whatever gun you are carrying you can perform to standard with. Something like the Wilson 5X5 skill test is quick and easy to take but reflective of what you might need.
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/pdf/5x5.pdf

 

[darinb]

This isn't just to/about you... It still amazes me how many people choose THIS path, fighting through the issues of running a pocket gun, rather than finding a way to carry a real fighting pistol. IMHO, one of the tidbits of valuable info that shooting Bill (or others) can provide is that honest feedback that maybe we should really give serious thought to some of our choices and assumptions.

No offense taken, I agree and the nano isn't a carry gun at this time antil I can be more efficient and youre right drill like the Bill drill provide honest feedback and we have ot be realistic.

 

[looney2ns]

I did some Bill drills last week and kept everything in the acceptable range with a glock 19 that had a trigger job but when I did the same with my beretta nano not at all the same results. The nano DA revolver like trigger is going to take time to get used to.

Dry fire practice is your friend. You've got nothing better to do while watching TV right?
I had the same issue with my 1st gen LCP at first, but after many sessions of dry fire and live fire, I no longer notice the trigger.

 

[Roadie]

Why stop at three?

My may-as-well-be-unqualified opinion: Shoot as many as it takes.

Counting your shots isn't practical - it won't be done in a real-life situation.

All three of the formal handgun training classes I've had - it was "burst". And to mix-up how many a "burst" meant. 3-4 on one "up", then 5-7 on the next one. Chastisement for only 2 shots.

5 shots to the solar plexus of a dude wearing soft body armor MAY knock him down or even "out". May not take him completely out of the fight. 1 shot to the noggin may not take him out of the fight.

If you've gotten to the point of shooting - shoot until you don't need to shoot any more.

Agreed. When I took MDFIs Handgun 1 they didn't tell us how many shots to fire, they just said to fire multiple rounds, assess, then fire again if needed.

 

[danielson]

There simply are times you cannot carry a fighting handgun, PERIOD!!! Yes, small guns suck. But if you have one in your pocket, when you CAN NOT have a "real gun" on your belt, you are a MILLION times better off than having nothing, because you had to leave your fighting gun at home. That being said, there is no reason to box yourself into the corner by carrying a pocket gun when you dont HAVE to...

This isn't just to/about you... It still amazes me how many people choose THIS path, fighting through the issues of running a pocket gun, rather than finding a way to carry a real fighting pistol. IMHO, one of the tidbits of valuable info that shooting Bill (or others) can provide is that honest feedback that maybe we should really give serious thought to some of our choices and assumptions.