Speaking of Grips.... (Henk Iverson Class)

[Jackson]

Can anyone who went to the Henk Iverson class, or who has trained with him in the past, tell me about his overhand rifle gripping method? I have not seen that before and I'd be interested in getting an idea why he chooses to use that method and what he believes are the advantages.

It was not really pertinent to the class we were taking, and I didn't notice it until the end, so I never had an opportunity to ask him.

 

[rhino]

Can anyone who went to the Henk Iverson class, or who has trained with him in the past, tell me about his overhand rifle gripping method? I have not seen that before and I'd be interested in getting an idea why he chooses to use that method and what he believes are the advantages.

It was not really pertinent to the class we were taking, and I didn't notice it until the end, so I never had an opportunity to ask him.

I only know what he explained during class, but I think it's something either he developed or arose during training with the US Army SF units who suffer under his tutelage when they switched to Glocks. As you know, the most common erroneous shooting result with Glocks is low and left (for right handers). The technique is supposed to alleviate that.

I'm willing to try it a bit more and keep an open mind about it. I tried it during the class with mixed results. When I could feel Henk staring at me, I did my best to incoporate his techniques into my routine (the shield/spear, the grip, etc). I'd like to give it a whirl with my G17 the next time I get a chance.

My first impression is that it's a Band-Aid for a marksmanship illness rather than a cure. I can't refute the results he reported, though, and if the Band-Aid is that effective, who am I to argue? I think that when the grip we (and almost everyone else) teach with thumbs forward is overall the best for consistently controlling the gun in recoil. I remain unconvinced that thumbs forward is an inherent cause of shooting low/left with Glocks or any other gun.

Ultimately putting bullets where you want them is a result of pressing the trigger directly to the rear and not disturbing the alignment of the gun until the bullet has exited the barrel. Given that, some grips are clearly better tools for helping most people achieve that result on a consistent basis, especially in terms of consistently returning the gun/sights to where they need to be after each shot as quickly as possible.

 

[Jackson]

Joe,

I am referring to his method of gripping the carbine. This was not something talked about during the class, but something I noticed him doing. He would position his support hand on the rifle in an overhand kind of way. It was like he just reached out to grab the rifle, rather than inverting his hand to grab it from underneath or the side.

We discussed his pistol gripping method in a prevoius thread and I came to the same conclusion that you did about it being a band-aid for poor trigger control.

 

[rhino]

Joe,

I am referring to his method of gripping the carbine. This was not something talked about during the class, but something I noticed him doing. He would position his support hand on the rifle in an overhand kind of way. It was like he just reached out to grab the rifle, rather than inverting his hand to grab it from underneath or the side.

We discussed his pistol gripping method in a prevoius thread and I came to the same conclusion that you did about it being a band-aid for poor trigger control.

Ah! Well . . . I've overheard people talking about it. The gist that I gathered was that it's to help with retention of the weapon in CQB situations.

Curiously, I know people who have been shooting ARs that way for years (like more than 10 at least) with really good results. One of them won his class at the USPSA 3-gun nationals a few times years ago doing it, in fact. One neat thing about it is that it allows you to brace on barricades and other supports for long distance shots with a really stable hold. From what I can tell, it helps some people drive the front end of the gun better, not unlike gripping as far forward as possible.

 

[shootinghoosier]

Agree that it looked pretty odd when Henk shot a carbine. Frank prepared us earlier in the week to anticipate his unusual shooting style with a rifle, and as I recall, he suggested that it had to do with weapon retention during close quarter combat.

After seeing it, I'm inclined to think that Henk's rifle hold might also be related to having a better control over the muzzle rise on fully automatic carbines. Again, that's just my guess.

 

[rhino]

Having your hand/wrist pronated (palm down) instead of supinated (palm up) definitely puts your shoulder/chest muscles in a more advantageous orientation in order to push the muzzle in any direction you want. That could help with retention/fighting for the gun as well as driving the muzzle when you're shooting.

 

[Jackson]

Weapon retention and having stronger control over the gun were the answers that I'd come up with as well.

 

[Glock21]

I think when discussing this it's important to remember where Henk comes from, what he is doing and who he trains the most of.

He is ex-military/police, and he trains 99.8% military and police. He's from SOUTH AFRICA (where NOTHING dies of old age!) and he has lived and worked in places where there is no legal (or behavioral) difference between criminals, terrorists and rebels. The attitude was truely "shoot them all and let God sort 'em out."

Why is this important? Two reasons. 1) the rules of engagement are different for those two groups compared to the vast majority of we who post here. 2) He has limited time with his students (most of whom are ORDERED to be there) and he must get instant results from that limited training time.

I consider Henk a friend, a mentor and completely RIGHT when his methods are applied to his demographic. I think the vast majority of his methods, and 100% of his fight philosophy, apply to my life. However, there are some things he does which I don't think apply, and there are many things he does that I couldn't begin to ask my students to do and expect any level of success.

I agree with Rhino that his grip is a one-size-fits-all fix for shooting problems. What we are doing is locking the gun in a "vice" and making trigger control a non-issue. Is it effective? You bet! It works great! Untill you pick up a revolver...or a gun that is WAY too big or too small for you. It also won't work for many shooters who get fatigued quickly with such tension in their muscles. ...or ONE HANDED!

We must remember that he is teaching this to 18 to 30-year-olds who are in perfect physical condition, not my grandmother. That's not to say it doesn't work, or that it won't work for anyone reading this - my attitude is "I can't argue with success", so give it a try if you'd like, it might turn you into Rob Leatham. But as an instructor who must teach all who show up, I see problems with this when it comes to my child/teen/elderly/small statured adult students. And this grip has some issue transfering between some hand sizes and guns, so it dosn't fit into my "non-gun specific" technique philosopy. But again, that's a personal thing, and it's not to say that Henk isn't on to something - I may be singing a different tune next year.

That being said, Henk's fighting philosophy is "right." This will happen fast, it will most likely require you to deal with badguys weapon before you can even draw your gun, and you must make the first shot count. The problem is that most "fights" that the average CCW holder are involved in actually don't go that way, and if they do, the aggressor is not fighting you like Henk Iverson fights. Most criminals are awful fighters, not interested in a fight, are drunk or stoned and are complete wastes of space. That doesn't mean they can't or won't kill you - but we know from all the robberies and defensive shootings we have documented in the US, that most of us don't have to be Green Beret level fighters to deal with active shooters or hold up men. If we did, then no good guys would ever be able to shoot badguys, and as we all know, that happens ALL the time.
But, generally, criminals in the US are not "at war" with those they prey on. They look for easy targets, or they do it on a whim without consideration of the abilities of who they attack.


That doesn't mean that I don't want, don't encourage, and won't continue to get all of the training I can! Hell, I scheduled Henk for the class and made it happen! I love what he does and I'll continue to work with him as long as he'll have me! That also doesn't mean that tomorrow we won't wake up to find multiple places in the US under attack by properly trained terrorists who are hell bent on a real fight, or that the next person to attack one of us isn't a trained fighter. It could happen, and I personally always train for worst case scenario. But, truth be told, if I took Henk's advice and administered a coup de grace to any attacker that was by all appearences no longer a threat, to jail I'd be a goin'. We have to consider where we live, who we are, and what laws we live under - and as an instructor I have to consider what will work best for MY students. At this point I still teach a thumbs up grip, and I will continue to do so (unless I'm on Henk's line - there, he's the boss and what he says goes!)

So, I doubt any of what I've said has been much of a help. Try it, see how you like it. If it works for you, good bless ya! I won't correct it if you're making hits.

 

[rhino]

That was excellent analysis and commentary, sir!

 

[Glock21]

That was excellent analysis and commentary, sir!

Thank you!

 

[Steve MI]

any pictures of these grip ttps

 

[figley]

If someone gets on top of you before you get a chance to shoot them in the throat, simply rotate the rifle up, and smash him right in the mouth with the magazine.

Also, after a couple of mags, the magwell can get too hot to hold onto, and a VFG is unnecessary crap on a carbine.

Henk doesn't teach you how to shoot, he teaches you how to FIGHT with a rifle.

 

[Glock21]

If someone gets on top of you before you get a chance to shoot them in the throat, simply rotate the rifle up, and smash him right in the mouth with the magazine.

Also, after a couple of mags, the magwell can get too hot to hold onto, and a VFG is unnecessary crap on a carbine.

Henk doesn't teach you how to shoot, he teaches you how to FIGHT with a rifle.

Henk teaches you to fight with a SPECIFIC rifle. The overhand grip won't work with a FAL, Mini-14, M1A, 30-Carbine, or any other rifle with a low sight/bore radius. Nor will it work with a shotgun.

What he teaches is VERY effective with the AR/M4 platform, no doubt! But it's gun specific, and one needs to keep that in perspective if we plan on being well-rounded professional gunman.

I teach Henk's flat stock technique, and I even show my students his overhand grip if they are running an AR, but it's not my "this is the way we will do this" directive on the range because it simply doesn't apply to everyone's life like it does the US Military. And my wife for one will attest that the AR is NOT easier for her to use with an overhand support hand technique.

Once again, I respect the he!! out of Henk and I love what he does, and what he does is not for everyone.

 

[rhino]

Also, after a couple of mags, the magwell can get too hot to hold onto, and a VFG is unnecessary crap on a carbine.

If the magwell gets too hot, won't the fore end be too hot also?

 

[figley]

If the magwell gets too hot, won't the fore end be too hot also?

I wouldn't think so. In this case, your "support hand", is on the handguard. This is assuming an un-modded carbine, with heat-deflecting handguards instead of a railed forend.

If you shoot right handed, hold your left hand in front of you, and make a common "C", with your hand. Now, just clamp onto the most rearward portion of the handguard, fingers on top, thumb on bottom.

This grip enhances weapon retention and manipulation in a CQB scenario. Just from going through drills using this grip, I have found it also gives better support and control to the front end of your AR when transitioning to a sidearm. (Who hasn't seen someone drop a rifle on a single-point sling, and take a shot to the cajones?)

Admittedly, my experience with this method is purely academic. I would enjoy some input from someone who has routinely cleared buildings using this method. I know Henk routinely gets feedback from these types, who he has trained. But, understandably, none of us are privy to those conversations.

 

[Jackson]

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but... The handguards and barrel area on my AR seem to get hotter than my mag well and lower receiver area. I have standard carbine length palstic handguards with aluminum heat shields inside. Now, the metal collar dohicker that holds the handguards on... that part gets hot. And the front one on the barrel... That one gets hot too. My magwell, not as much.

Or, maybe I'm not paying attention to it. I will try that out this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[rhino]

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but... The handguards and barrel area on my AR seem to get hotter than my mag well and lower receiver area. I have standard carbine length palstic handguards with aluminum heat shields inside. Now, the metal collar dohicker that holds the handguards on... that part gets hot. And the front one on the barrel... That one gets hot too. My magwell, not as much.

Or, maybe I'm not paying attention to it. I will try that out this weekend and see how it goes.

Your experience mirrors mine. I've never had the magwell get so hot that I couldn't hold there, but I've had the fore end/handguard get toasty enough that I had to wear gloves.

 

[Glock21]

Your experience mirrors mine. I've never had the magwell get so hot that I couldn't hold there, but I've had the fore end/handguard get toasty enough that I had to wear gloves.

Damn zombies.

 

[darthfader]

henk found the position by looking at photos of long distance shooting competitions in the 19th century. in the photos they were using reverse supination. henk experimented with it and made it his own. the advantages he talks about are when scanning with rifle rotated 90 deg anticlockwise the gun is out of your face so you can see what going on. it makes it easier for you to see things at your feet, it makes it easier to scan. when you see a threat you can snap the gun clockwise 90 deg quickly to engage the contact. it takes almost no time to do this and for me feels very comfortable, im no pup either, im 43 and have put a lot of miles on this body. the other point he makes is that there are 5 points of contact on the rifle if you are doing it correctly. for a righty its left hand on delta ring, mag against left forearm (very important!) right hand on grip, cheek on stock, stock on shoulder with stock open to the first position. both elbows should be in contact with your body pulling your shoulders in toward each other. its a very compact stance and makes your platform extremely stable, as frank puts it you are shooting the rifle from a vise. i used it with great success in his rifle1 class. i can see where it would be uncomfortable for some but for me its really, really good. hope this helps!!!

 

[figley]

<snip>

thank you