Spiraling epidemic

[Fargo]

Yes, that's why my opinion on matters like these is always tempered by the knowledge others have that I have the luxury of not having.

Being out in the country I bet you have run into some methheads though.

Heroin and Meth are the two drugs that seem to me to produce psychopathic and sociopathic traits in those deep in their grip. People who were otherwise basically decent people, seem to become completely unable to view others as human beings. What really gets to me is the way they can lie, looking you right in the eye, without a single normal tell that they are being dishonest.

I could be wrong, but I honestly believe that a true free heroin market would simply result in a ton more of that with little appreciable benefit. In fact, I would wager that incarceration rates would go up based upon the crime that seems to inevitably follow true heroin addiction.

 

[steveh_131]

I agree the war on drugs has been a trainwreck in so many ways. However, I don't think that openly available heroin is any sort of answer.

You argue as if the only options are heroin or nothing.

If we stopped meddling in the market, ridiculously stupid drugs like heroin would be nearly a non-issue. I doubt that it would even be all that available. It's dangerous and opens up a business for all sorts of civil liability. There are better, cheaper and safer ways to get high, I'm sure.

 

[Fargo]

You argue as if the only options are heroin or nothing.

If we stopped meddling in the market, ridiculously stupid drugs like heroin would be nearly a non-issue. I doubt that it would even be all that available. It's dangerous and opens up a business for all sorts of civil liability. There are better, cheaper and safer ways to get high, I'm sure.

I thought we were talking about opening up the heroin market here? You have been arguing for that for pages. Are you are now proposing something completely different?

Legalizing heroin is NOT the same as legalizing other drugs. That is an entirely different conversation with its own nuances and problems.

 

[rambone]

I, unfortunately, have had way too much experience with heroin addicts, usually in relation to the other crimes they have committed to maintain their habit or while under the influence. It terrifies me the way it seems to suck their soul out, leading them to abandon and abuse their spouses, their own children, and lose all regard for others. Having spent a good deal of time in the hospital holding a newborn baby who was in the middle of screaming withdrawal because his mom used opiates while he was in utero also profoundly affected me. It was that experience that really opened my eyes to how an opiate addict really can't feel pleasure without opiates and is in excruciating pain without them. He couldn't lie to me about it, like the adults do with scarily casual and practiced sincerity.

I agree the war on drugs has been a trainwreck in so many ways. However, I don't think that openly available heroin is any sort of answer.

Aren't we already awash in cheap, accessible heroin? I'm not seeing the "pros" of prohibition.

 

[Fargo]

Aren't we already awash in cheap, accessible heroin? I'm not seeing the "pros" of prohibition.

As I said a couple pages back, I think there are some worthwhile benefits on a social cost basis, particularly as pertains to children and infants. Plus, This is one of those things I actually think is a legitimate use of legislative authority based upon a right/wrong analysis, but that's just me. YMMV. There is a reason no macro-society leaves heroin unregulated and it isn't because the whole globe hates freedom.

NO society has been willing to stomach the costs of open heroin on a long term basis and I think that is very telling. From where I sit, the nature of heroin addiction is REALLY ugly and costly to the rest of society.

 

[Fargo]

So if the majority of people who did want it decriminalized were users or wanna be users, you'd be okay with it?

As for the bolded, you lambasted me up thread for disingenuous assumptions you thought I made. All I can say it Pot, meet Kettle. What a ridiculous characterization of the motivation of those who want drugs decriminalized. It would seem that my original response to your baseless assessment should stand on its merits after all.

Are you unfamiliar with the term "majority"? It means more than fifty percent. I in no way said or implied that YOU were in the majority portion of the people I've discussed this with, but far be it from me talk you down from your high horse.

INGO is far from the only place I've discussed this. You and Steve are obviously arguing from libertarian/free market principles. My experience has been that there are far more who say "let them kill themselves, good riddance" than there are those that make your arguments about heroin. This does give me pause.

It in no way is a criticism of YOU.

 

[steveh_131]

I thought we were talking about opening up the heroin market here? You have been arguing for that for pages. Are you are now proposing something completely different?

Legalizing heroin is NOT the same as legalizing other drugs. That is an entirely different conversation with its own nuances and problems.

I'm talking about opening up every drug market.

Legalizing Heroin while criminalizing every safer form of opiates wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Starting with legalizing basic painkillers would be better than starting with heroin. I suspect that heroin use would become mostly a non-issue.

We can look at history for empirical evidence of all of these things. During the prohibition era, people started drinking whatever they could get their hands on. Wood alcohol become popular, but was extremely dangerous.

Now that prohibition is gone, do people still drink dangerous bootlegged chemicals like wood alcohol? Of course not. Heroin, crack and crystal meth would fall in that same category, in my opinion.

 

[rambone]

As I said a couple pages back, I think there are some worthwhile benefits on a social cost basis, particularly as pertains to children and infants.

I read where you said that addicts have their souls sucked out and neglect their families. Yes, neglected children is a sad situation but this is a constant phenomenon, with or without the law.

If there was a more compelling point I may have missed it.

Plus, This is one of those things I actually think is a legitimate use of legislative authority based upon a right/wrong analysis, but that's just me. YMMV.

Adultery is wrong. It destroys families and leads to lots of suffering. Depression. Suicide. Kids growing up with psychological problems. Kids dropping out of school. More messed up lives... more future addicts in the making. More future criminals.

Using ever metric, adultery is harmful to society, to families, to children.

Since freedom has been dropped from the discussion, there is a clear case for banning it. Cheat on your spouse, go to prison. We could build innumerable other arguments the same way.

There is a reason no macro-society leaves heroin unregulated and it isn't because the whole globe hates freedom.

NO society has been willing to stomach the costs of open heroin on a long term basis and I think that is very telling.

I would debate that. Much of the world sings songs about freedom and all that, but they actually value collectivism and social control. Most countries like strict gun control and government health care, among other things. That's probably something for another conversation.

From where I sit, the nature of heroin addiction is REALLY ugly and costly to the rest of society.

I think that's a safe statement to make from any perspective. But the costs of prohibition are substantial as well. There are great injustices perpetrated because of it. Violence. Innocents killed and imprisoned. Orphaned children. Corruption. Erosion of our rights. Ignoring the constitution. Asset forfeiture. Stop & frisk. No-knock raids. Checkpoints. Cavity searches. Big government. A developing police state.

All of this falls back on the idea that government should be pursuing ways to socially engineer society.

Mother of three negligently shot in the head during botched drug raid
Traffic stop leads to forced 14-hr anal cavity search, X-rays, colonoscopy on innocent man
Police kill innocent 80-year-old man in his bed after claiming his house smelled like meth
Officer performed dozens of anal cavity searches for fun
DEA has doubled its asset seizures since 2001
Woman was probed, cavity searched, & X-rayed when she tried to reenter the USA

Lots of really ugly stuff....

 

[85s10]

It is amazing the abuse our bodies take from processed foods and even some natural foods due to hybrid seed. China rejects thousands of tons of our corn due to the herbicides that grows automatically in the seed.

 

[churchmouse]

Who woke this thread up

 

[IndyDave1776]

DON'T WAKE UP THE SLEEPING THREAD!!!