Stand your ground laws vs Bullying

[ATOMonkey]

"Just stand up for yourself" doesn't work when you're 130 lbs soaking wet and are being cornered by 5-10 people who are all much bigger than you.

That is modern bullying.

There is no one bully who intimidates everyone. There are cliches, who all take their turn bullying the same students who don't fit in and don't have many friends.

Bullying also has less to do with physical violence than it does with verbal abuse and just general harassment.

It is relentless daily torment and the victim is often quite alone. The teachers won't do anything unless they see an actual fight. The parents won't/can't do anything, but they'll give the "I'm behind you son," speech. Thanks dad, but that really doesn't help a damn thing. Are you going to be behind me when I have to walk through a gauntlet of rednecks who each take a turn punching me in the arm/gut every time I walk to class? Are you going to be behind me when there's nowhere for me to sit at lunch time? Where are you going to be when a group of kids tells me I'm a fag, and no one likes me, and that I'm worthless every, single, day. When they tell me I'm too fat, or I'm too skinny, or my hair is too short, or too long, that my clothes aren't good enough, that I'm so completely unattractive that no one will ever want to be with me. Are you going to be there when my head is slammed into a locker, and no one knows who did it? When I can't carry a book or papers to class without it being knocked out of my hand at least once? Oh yes, that's terribly hilarious. It always got a laugh.

So, **** your dated advice about taking a stand and fighting back.

Guess what, I did take a stand fight back once. It only made things worse. Instead of getting hit in the arm, I got punched in the back of the head. Instead of getting called worthless, I got death threats. Oh they're just kids, they don't mean it. Bull****. You punch a bully and you're just going to make him mad. Even if you beat the ever living **** out of him on Monday, you're going to see him again on Tuesday, and every day after, and he's going to be PISSED.

You ever live your life looking over your shoulder everyday with no one to back you up? Not even someone to just have the balls to say, "hey, leave him alone." No, they just watch.

You try living without hope, alone, in constant fear, and then tell me why kids who kill themselves are "entitled."

 

[Citizen711]

It's this so-called "zero tolerance" stuff that has hurt kids, because punishing the victim for defending himself is ridiculous!

Sadly, it all comes back to the parents. It's far easier to demand a school accept full responsibility for preventing any and all violence on its grounds than for the parents to teach their children the basic concept of standing up for themselves and others.

It's hard for those parents to even grasp that concept when they are so willing to completely offload that responsibility onto the local authorities for themselves.

"Just stand up for yourself" doesn't work when you're 130 lbs soaking wet and are being cornered by 5-10 people who are all much bigger than you.

That is modern bullying.

There is no one bully who intimidates everyone. There are cliches, who all take their turn bullying the same students who don't fit in and don't have many friends.

Bullying also has less to do with physical violence than it does with verbal abuse and just general harassment.

It is relentless daily torment and the victim is often quite alone. The teachers won't do anything unless they see an actual fight. The parents won't/can't do anything, but they'll give the "I'm behind you son," speech. Thanks dad, but that really doesn't help a damn thing. Are you going to be behind me when I have to walk through a gauntlet of rednecks who each take a turn punching me in the arm/gut every time I walk to class? Are you going to be behind me when there's nowhere for me to sit at lunch time? Where are you going to be when a group of kids tells me I'm a fag, and no one likes me, and that I'm worthless every, single, day. When they tell me I'm too fat, or I'm too skinny, or my hair is too short, or too long, that my clothes aren't good enough, that I'm so completely unattractive that no one will ever want to be with me. Are you going to be there when my head is slammed into a locker, and no one knows who did it? When I can't carry a book or papers to class without it being knocked out of my hand at least once? Oh yes, that's terribly hilarious. It always got a laugh.

So, **** your dated advice about taking a stand and fighting back.

Guess what, I did take a stand fight back once. It only made things worse. Instead of getting hit in the arm, I got punched in the back of the head. Instead of getting called worthless, I got death threats. Oh they're just kids, they don't mean it. Bull****. You punch a bully and you're just going to make him mad. Even if you beat the ever living **** out of him on Monday, you're going to see him again on Tuesday, and every day after, and he's going to be PISSED.

You ever live your life looking over your shoulder everyday with no one to back you up? Not even someone to just have the balls to say, "hey, leave him alone." No, they just watch.

You try living without hope, alone, in constant fear, and then tell me why kids who kill themselves are "entitled."

That's a sad testimony, brother, and I sympathize with you. It's unfortunately a pretty accurate description of what's going on today in schools. The thing is, as a society we didn't get to this point overnight. We've had a couple of generations of pacifists with their heads in the sand that led up to it. I'm talking about pacifists who don't even know they're pacifists - people who might even be right there thinking things like, "we just need to bomb the s**t outta Afganistan", but only because neither they or their children would be in a position to be in the mix. They have no sense of personal responsibility for the world around them beyond making sure we don't run out of Louisiana swamp mice or generate too much pollution - you know, the *easy* stuff to stand up for. It's like getting a trophy for last place - insignificant as hell, but they've been taught to feel good about it.

Change starts with the same segment of people who began this unfortunate slide in the first place - the young. I always tried to teach my kids to never suffer a bully for anyone, but especially where they or their siblings were concerned. They new that if they got in trouble for standing up for someone in school, they would suffer a punishment in school but a get a pat on the back and their favorite meal for dinner that evening at home, and I would be there for them.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

“He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.” -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

[Blackhawk2001]

"Just stand up for yourself" doesn't work when you're 130 lbs soaking wet and are being cornered by 5-10 people who are all much bigger than you.

That is modern bullying.

There is no one bully who intimidates everyone. There are cliches, who all take their turn bullying the same students who don't fit in and don't have many friends.

Bullying also has less to do with physical violence than it does with verbal abuse and just general harassment.

It is relentless daily torment and the victim is often quite alone. The teachers won't do anything unless they see an actual fight. The parents won't/can't do anything, but they'll give the "I'm behind you son," speech. Thanks dad, but that really doesn't help a damn thing. Are you going to be behind me when I have to walk through a gauntlet of rednecks who each take a turn punching me in the arm/gut every time I walk to class? Are you going to be behind me when there's nowhere for me to sit at lunch time? Where are you going to be when a group of kids tells me I'm a fag, and no one likes me, and that I'm worthless every, single, day. When they tell me I'm too fat, or I'm too skinny, or my hair is too short, or too long, that my clothes aren't good enough, that I'm so completely unattractive that no one will ever want to be with me. Are you going to be there when my head is slammed into a locker, and no one knows who did it? When I can't carry a book or papers to class without it being knocked out of my hand at least once? Oh yes, that's terribly hilarious. It always got a laugh.

So, **** your dated advice about taking a stand and fighting back.

Guess what, I did take a stand fight back once. It only made things worse. Instead of getting hit in the arm, I got punched in the back of the head. Instead of getting called worthless, I got death threats. Oh they're just kids, they don't mean it. Bull****. You punch a bully and you're just going to make him mad. Even if you beat the ever living **** out of him on Monday, you're going to see him again on Tuesday, and every day after, and he's going to be PISSED.

You ever live your life looking over your shoulder everyday with no one to back you up? Not even someone to just have the balls to say, "hey, leave him alone." No, they just watch.

You try living without hope, alone, in constant fear, and then tell me why kids who kill themselves are "entitled."

I guess it is dated advice, but here's an anecdote for you. Guy I knew was in a bar in Morgan City, LA and did something stupid. As a result, four big roughnecks caught him outside the bar and beat him senseless. Analogous to the situation you outlined so far (except for the initial stupidity that started the whole thing). After he healed, the guy caught each one of the four who beat him up and administered a severe beating with a 2 x 4 or baseball bat (I forget which).

The "Immorals" of the story are: Bullies need to be taught a lesson, but don't do it stupidly; don't be fair about it; it helps to be thought of as a bit prone to being "crazy". If you're going to be punished anyway, you might as well make your retribution worth the punishment. If you're not willing to stand up for yourself; don't expect that anyone else is going to do it for you.

 

[Mosinowner]

That sorry excuse for a civilized human being certainly deserved that and more. I would say that a good beating would have been in order.

He just got a talking to while I almost got suspended

 

[ATOMonkey]

I guess it is dated advice, but here's an anecdote for you. Guy I knew was in a bar in Morgan City, LA and did something stupid. As a result, four big roughnecks caught him outside the bar and beat him senseless. Analogous to the situation you outlined so far (except for the initial stupidity that started the whole thing). After he healed, the guy caught each one of the four who beat him up and administered a severe beating with a 2 x 4 or baseball bat (I forget which).

The "Immorals" of the story are: Bullies need to be taught a lesson, but don't do it stupidly; don't be fair about it; it helps to be thought of as a bit prone to being "crazy". If you're going to be punished anyway, you might as well make your retribution worth the punishment. If you're not willing to stand up for yourself; don't expect that anyone else is going to do it for you.

Wow, you just don't get it. You're a pretty fair handed level headed guy, but you're really missing the mark on this one.

This isn't random drunks and street justice. This is children in public school, who will see each other every day for 12 years. And yes, bullying starts very very early.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Sadly, it all comes back to the parents. It's far easier to demand a school accept full responsibility for preventing any and all violence on its grounds than for the parents to teach their children the basic concept of standing up for themselves and others.

It's hard for those parents to even grasp that concept when they are so willing to completely offload that responsibility onto the local authorities for themselves.




That's a sad testimony, brother, and I sympathize with you. It's unfortunately a pretty accurate description of what's going on today in schools. The thing is, as a society we didn't get to this point overnight. We've had a couple of generations of pacifists with their heads in the sand that led up to it. I'm talking about pacifists who don't even know they're pacifists - people who might even be right there thinking things like, "we just need to bomb the s**t outta Afganistan", but only because neither they or their children would be in a position to be in the mix. They have no sense of personal responsibility for the world around them beyond making sure we don't run out of Louisiana swamp mice or generate too much pollution - you know, the *easy* stuff to stand up for. It's like getting a trophy for last place - insignificant as hell, but they've been taught to feel good about it.

Change starts with the same segment of people who began this unfortunate slide in the first place - the young. I always tried to teach my kids to never suffer a bully for anyone, but especially where they or their siblings were concerned. They new that if they got in trouble for standing up for someone in school, they would suffer a punishment in school but a get a pat on the back and their favorite meal for dinner that evening at home, and I would be there for them.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

“He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.” -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Exactly. It's about doing the right thing, especially when it's the hard thing.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Bullying exists because the culture allows it, not because some kid is just dysfunctional.

If the majority viewed bullying as completely unacceptable, then it wouldn't happen. But we don't, and it does. Why? Because it's funny to make jokes about people who are different. It makes us feel better to gossip about that girl who is wearing last season's clothes, or maybe she's a size bigger than the jeans she has on. Or what about that dorking looking guy. Man, he's a complete tool. That crazy survivalist guy down the street is probably living in his mom's basement wearing a tin-foil hat.

We like to haze the new guy. Oh it's all just good fun, right?

Our children see this and they emulate it with their peers, only it's not strangers, and they don't know when to stop.

 

[cundiff5535]

Reading this thread has me sitting here curious to how many of you actually in this forum have actually been corned by "street thugs" and directly threatened or bullied (not heard about but, this has personally has happened to them)?

The reason I ask this is because I was raised on the south side of Chicago in a predominately black area and never once came across an issue of being harassed or threatened? (where I felt in danger... I got into my normal fights and stuff)

Not to say that it doesn't happen... I was pretty well known due to many factors so maybe that had a lot to do with it? But, from reading this thread... it just seems like it has happened more than I thought?

When speaking of "thugs" or street gangs... 95% of what I think you are referring to is black on black crime that is happening for reasons that involve drug territories and recruiting lines...

On the actual topic of kids being bullied... yes, I see and hear about that far more often and agree with what I have read.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I have never had a problem with strangers.

 

[nawainwright]

Great piece of family "lore". The first time my uncle came home from school with a torn shirt, bloody nose, covered in scrapes my grandmother was sitting at the kitchen table reading. She looked up at him and then looked down, resuming her reading with the simple statement, "You didn't hit him hard enough the first time." My uncle never came home bloodied by a bully ever again.

 

[churchmouse]

"Just stand up for yourself" doesn't work when you're 130 lbs soaking wet and are being cornered by 5-10 people who are all much bigger than you.

That is modern bullying.

There is no one bully who intimidates everyone. There are cliches, who all take their turn bullying the same students who don't fit in and don't have many friends.

Bullying also has less to do with physical violence than it does with verbal abuse and just general harassment.

It is relentless daily torment and the victim is often quite alone. The teachers won't do anything unless they see an actual fight. The parents won't/can't do anything, but they'll give the "I'm behind you son," speech. Thanks dad, but that really doesn't help a damn thing. Are you going to be behind me when I have to walk through a gauntlet of rednecks who each take a turn punching me in the arm/gut every time I walk to class? Are you going to be behind me when there's nowhere for me to sit at lunch time? Where are you going to be when a group of kids tells me I'm a fag, and no one likes me, and that I'm worthless every, single, day. When they tell me I'm too fat, or I'm too skinny, or my hair is too short, or too long, that my clothes aren't good enough, that I'm so completely unattractive that no one will ever want to be with me. Are you going to be there when my head is slammed into a locker, and no one knows who did it? When I can't carry a book or papers to class without it being knocked out of my hand at least once? Oh yes, that's terribly hilarious. It always got a laugh.

So, **** your dated advice about taking a stand and fighting back.

Guess what, I did take a stand fight back once. It only made things worse. Instead of getting hit in the arm, I got punched in the back of the head. Instead of getting called worthless, I got death threats. Oh they're just kids, they don't mean it. Bull****. You punch a bully and you're just going to make him mad. Even if you beat the ever living **** out of him on Monday, you're going to see him again on Tuesday, and every day after, and he's going to be PISSED.

You ever live your life looking over your shoulder everyday with no one to back you up? Not even someone to just have the balls to say, "hey, leave him alone." No, they just watch.

You try living without hope, alone, in constant fear, and then tell me why kids who kill themselves are "entitled."

I see what you are saying but there is a time to just stand your ground. I am older by a bit but was that 125 pound kid. There was a group that thought it fun to totally terrorize me at every turn. I delivered papers (they used to let kids do that before thugs ruled the world, that is another topic for another thread) on the street most of them lived on. They took my bike, they ripped up my papers and tore my cloths along with the butt kicking's I received. Dad was a douche bag about it, man up and do your route. He was a basic coward. He was pissed about my cloths but did nothing. My uncles took me out in the woods and taught me how to shoot, fight and run away. They taught me when to do any of these things. I went out to run my route and was lucky enough to only see one of my dear friends. As he approached I let him get the handle bars on my bike and then I proceeded to un-A$$ him from his shirt while beating the crap out of him. I got into trouble from his mommy when he ran home bleeding. She canceled the paper and called my dad. So what. It did not fix the problem and it did get worse for a while but in the end I won. I built my self esteem and as I grew up no one would mess with me anymore as the price was far to high and it was common knowledge. I had the same thing in high school and went about curing it the same way. Yes, I was expelled a few times but the same thing happened, they left me alone after a while. My younger siblings got me into more scrapes but it was a part of who I became in this life. I would not change any of it.

Yes, things are different today, kids shoot each other.

 

[churchmouse]

Bullying exists because the culture allows it, not because some kid is just dysfunctional.

If the majority viewed bullying as completely unacceptable, then it wouldn't happen. But we don't, and it does. Why? Because it's funny to make jokes about people who are different. It makes us feel better to gossip about that girl who is wearing last season's clothes, or maybe she's a size bigger than the jeans she has on. Or what about that dorking looking guy. Man, he's a complete tool. That crazy survivalist guy down the street is probably living in his mom's basement wearing a tin-foil hat.

We like to haze the new guy. Oh it's all just good fun, right?

Our children see this and they emulate it with their peers, only it's not strangers, and they don't know when to stop.

It starts with the parents. What you teach your kids is who they will become if you stay the course and do the hard things, not the easy things. Kids want to run with the popular crowd and that is where some of this comes from. My kids, all 5, were taught early on how to avoid being hassled and if avoidance was not an option, how to defend themselves. They went through Karate at their uncles Do-Jo and were trained to box. They were also trained to use firearms as they became capable. Being a bully was just not accepted. Hazing is one thing. Being a straight up bully is not. We have to teach our kids this fact. We have to be parents not friends. We have to instill this in our kids. So many parents do not and it is becoming a serious issue.


All of the kids spent some time in detention but never started a fight, only ended them.

 

[Bond 281]

Wow, you just don't get it. You're a pretty fair handed level headed guy, but you're really missing the mark on this one.

This isn't random drunks and street justice. This is children in public school, who will see each other every day for 12 years. And yes, bullying starts very very early.

I don't see how that doesn't apply. Kids can still swing 2X4's.

My dad lived in Gary when he was growing up and got into fights all the time. Often times getting the crap beaten out of him a lot. He told me this one story about him fighting this kid when the kids little brother started stabbing my dad in the leg with a pick. My grandpa showed up and beat the **** out of the older kid. Solved that problem.

 

[churchmouse]

I don't see how that doesn't apply. Kids can still swing 2X4's.

My dad lived in Gary when he was growing up and got into fights all the time. Often times getting the crap beaten out of him a lot. He told me this one story about him fighting this kid when the kids little brother started stabbing my dad in the leg with a pick. My grandpa showed up and beat the **** out of the older kid. Solved that problem.

Careful....Not very PC. We are a kinder, gentler nation now.......

 

[Benny]

Told my kid the same thing my pops told me. If you're justified in defending yourself I will back you 100%.

Yep, my 7 year old son was bullied this year and now knows that if he gets suspended for sticking up for himself, I'm taking off work and we're having fun.

Being in trouble at school =/= being in trouble at home for things like this.


Luckily he had a great teacher that dealt with it swiftly after I informed her about it.

 

[dross]

Bullying exists because the culture allows it, not because some kid is just dysfunctional.

If the majority viewed bullying as completely unacceptable, then it wouldn't happen. But we don't, and it does. Why? Because it's funny to make jokes about people who are different. It makes us feel better to gossip about that girl who is wearing last season's clothes, or maybe she's a size bigger than the jeans she has on. Or what about that dorking looking guy. Man, he's a complete tool. That crazy survivalist guy down the street is probably living in his mom's basement wearing a tin-foil hat.

We like to haze the new guy. Oh it's all just good fun, right?

Our children see this and they emulate it with their peers, only it's not strangers, and they don't know when to stop.

I feel you, and I agree with you, mostly.

I have some very extensive thoughts about this, too much for here. I was bullied in Jr. High, left alone in high school, then got a "tough guy" rep when I was in the Army.

I think teachers could shut down bullying. They don't because I believe they identify with the bullies, not with the bullied. Lots of words needed to defend that statement, I know. I can, but I don't want to write that much right now.

With respect and compassion for you, ATO, I do think any person can stop themselves being bullied. It's true that bullies are cowards. I believe that will all my heart. You make them afraid of what will happen, they'll leave you alone. The others, the ones who bully from social pressure, will quit as soon as it's no longer any fun. The trick to making it not fun is extreme overreaction.

Taken too far, extreme overreaction leads to a Columbine. Anyone who can't understand those two guys at all has never been bullied. Understanding them isn't justification, not at all. But it's possible in a non-consensual situation, like school, for some people to make other people's lives miserable. Truly, actually, miserable.

I've written this story here before, but a friend of mine who was bullied severely, one day brutally attacked everyone who had bullied him. He used a metal engineer's notebook, and beat several guys down with it in one day. After that they talked about him behind his back, but no one every thumped him again, or said anything to his face.

A friend of mine found out her daughter was among a group of girls bullying another girl for wearing cheap clothes and being poor and all kinds of other nasty things. For the rest of that year, her daughter was banned from even talking to or sitting by her bully friends, and all her clothes were given away and she wore a couple of ill-fitting awful outfits purchased at the goodwill store.

There are ways to stop it, it just takes more will than most teachers, parents, and kids have.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Wow, you just don't get it. You're a pretty fair handed level headed guy, but you're really missing the mark on this one.

This isn't random drunks and street justice. This is children in public school, who will see each other every day for 12 years. And yes, bullying starts very very early.

I understand it very well; I was bullied as a skinny, loner of a kid for about 4 years. I had to have my grandmother come to my rescue with a broom when a group of kids decided to beat me up after school one day (don't you know how embarrassing THAT was). I learned to stand up for myself and not accept bullying; the only time I got suspended from high school was when I handed a bully his a** after he picked a fight with me in school and the only time my son was ever suspended in school was when he stopped some bullies from harassing a girl in his class. My wife was mentally abused by her mother for years and had to learn to stand up for herself as well.

If a parent can't teach his kids to either stand up and fight for themselves, or ignore verbal/psychological abuse, he either has some serious self-issues or are a confirmed pacifist (in which case, he needs to let others find their own way). Standing up to abuse isn't easy, but it's like body-building; you have to keep at it until you get the results you want - then you have to maintain.

 

[LPMan59]

some times "standing your ground" leads to Columbine. be careful what you wish for with your "kids can swing 2x4s" comments....

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I feel you, and I agree with you, mostly.

(snipped)

I think teachers could shut down bullying. They don't because I believe they identify with the bullies, not with the bullied. Lots of words needed to defend that statement, I know. I can, but I don't want to write that much right now.

(snipped)
There are ways to stop it, it just takes more will than most teachers, parents, and kids have.

I appreciate your reasoning in the first part that I snippeted, but I have to disagree. What I've seen with school systems (and we got involved in a few over the years) is that school administrators DON'T WANT TO SEE IT. They don't want trouble, so they don't see trouble. They deny drugs are used and sold; they deny bullies are smacking other students around; they deny the psychological bullying that can be heard in the halls, even when it's reported to them - sometimes when it's reported by teachers. They're afraid of getting sh*t from the perps' parents and usually not quite as afraid of the victims' parents; especially if they can get away with denial. I may be making your point for you but I don't see it as sympathizing with bullies; I see it as cowardice and bureaucratic lazyness of the same sort that is comfortable with "zero-tolerance" policies.

I have to agree with your second snippet.

 

[dwickstrom]

I dealt with this issue this year with my son 6 y/o at school he kept getting in trouble for fighting come to find out they had one teachers aide watching 3 different grades 30 kids at recess the second graders would pick on my son a kindergartener he would defend himself after trying to get away and have to fight his way out. The worst was three of them cornered him and were hitting kicking and spitting on him he did what he had to do to get away and get to the teacher. He got sent home for beating up three third graders enough to get to a teacher. I went nuts on the school cause he got sent home and they didn't. So teach your kids that violence is the last option but don't be someone's punching bag.