Stand your ground ruled unconstitutional

[oldpink]

and all Zimmerman had to do was stay in his car and nothing would have happened either.

Maybe you and I think he was being a bit of a wannabee cop, but he had still volunteered as a neighborhood watch, facts that are not in dispute.
Last time I checked, walking without actually threatening someone is not justification for use of force, certainly not to the point of confronting and violently pounding the walker's head against a sidewalk.
Zimmerman may not be exactly a model citizen, but the fact remains that the real aggressor, while regrettably dead, is dead directly because of his own actions, not because of the actions of Zimmerman.
The key thing here is that the initiator of deadly force, as slamming a man's head against a sidewalk certainly is, wasn't Zimmerman.
As was already pointed out above, all Martin had to do was continue walking all the way home and not a thing would have happened in the end.
ZERO
If being followed or merely believing you were being followed were the only legal justification for use of deadly force, just any person could kill someone else, then claim that he was in fear for his life and go free from prosecution.

 

[KLB]

and all Zimmerman had to do was stay in his car and nothing would have happened either.

That is about on par with saying that all the woman had to do was not wear a short skirt and go out to avoid being raped.

I don't understand how you think that Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle justified Martin coming back and attacking Zimmerman. Nothing Zimmerman did justified Martin attacking him. Even if Zimmerman had gone and confronted Martin, there was no justification for an attack.

 

[TangoSierraEcho]

Maybe you and I think he was being a bit of a wannabee cop, but he had still volunteered as a neighborhood watch, facts that are not in dispute.

Yes exactly this is where I am hung up on Zimmerman's actions

That is about on par with saying that all the woman had to do was not wear a short skirt and go out to avoid being raped.

I don't understand how you think that Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle justified Martin coming back and attacking Zimmerman. Nothing Zimmerman did justified Martin attacking him. Even if Zimmerman had gone and confronted Martin, there was no justification for an attack.

As you've said this issue has been addressed in other posts and I don't disagree at all with your position there is no justification for Martin's attack. No question, Zimmerman was attacked and he had a right to defend himself. My issue with Zimmerman's actions tie back to his attempt to do law enforcement's job. I've beat this horse as dead as it gets but appreciate your feedback and respect your position on this. Thanks

 

[oldpink]

Yes exactly this is where I am hung up on Zimmerman's actions


[...]

Maybe we could find debate on the exact way that he behaved, but are you saying that people should not be neighborhood watches?
Also, another fact that underreported by the wildly irresponsible press was that Zimmerman, when he got out of his truck and was on the phone with 911, when told that he should stop following Martin, can be clearly heard stopping.
Martin attacked after Zimmerman had quit following.
He clearly had a chip on his shoulder.

 

[TangoSierraEcho]

Maybe we could find debate on the exact way that he behaved, but are you saying that people should not be neighborhood watches?

Personally I think that there is great value in having a neighborhood watch, but who watches the watchers?

 

[oldpink]

Personally I think that there is great value in having a neighborhood watch, but who watches the watchers?

There should definitely be some leadership involved, such that rules are spelled out and on paper for how to behave with suspicious behavior observed, and the volunteers should be limited to observing and reporting, not following and not attempting any type of apprehension.
Any sidearm or other defensive weapon should be reserved exclusively for a last resort, as with an irrational person acting suspiciously who doesn't like a man sitting in his truck simply watching to be sure that he has no bad intentions.

 

[chipbennett]

Florida Judge Rules ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Is Unconstitutional https://www.wsj.com/articles/florid...our-ground-law-is-unconstitutional-1499113172

FL....

Judge rules Stand your ground unconstitutional

Florida's 'stand your ground' law ruled unconstitutional by judge | Fox News

Misleading headline is misleading.

The judge did not rule that Florida's SYG law is unconstitutional. Rather, he ruled that the Florida legislature's recent change to Florida's SYG law, putting the burden of proof on the State to disprove self-defense by clear and convincing evidence during a pre-trial hearing if SYG is invoked by the defendant, to be unconstitutional.

The judge is a flake, and his ruling is wrong (he based it on the premise that the statutory change was not actually a statutory change, but was rather a change in the "procedures of the court"), but he did NOT rule that "SYG" is unconstitutional.

 

[chipbennett]

So we start with the assumption every killing is self defense and then try to prove it wasn't? Your wife shoots you. You die. There are no witnesses. She does not give a statement. Prove it's not self defense. I'm pretty good with the way Indiana deals with it. Self defense is a defense. If you want to claim self defense, you need to articulate why you thought the force was necessary.

Isn't the standard "de minimus" evidence in order to claim self-defense? That is, one cannot simply claim self-defense, without providing some bare-minimum evidence (such as Mas Ayoob's, "Officer, that man threatened me") to support the claim.

 

[chipbennett]

I think it is interesting how many people didn't read the whole article or missed the important parts of the article to focus only on the misleading attention grabbing headline.

And on another note, while I agree Mr. Zimmerman has every right to defend himself from an attack, he should never have initiated the confrontation that led to that attack. He may have been acquitted of murder but that fact doesn't make his actions that led to the shooting any less wrong.

He didn't. Martin (who had already evaded visual contact, and made it some 400 feet back to the town home where he was staying), circled back in the dark, approached, confronted, and assaulted Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was merely walking on a sidewalk, toward his truck.

 

[chipbennett]

You are only focusing on the fight and not what led to it. How did these to meet so as to get to a point where punches are flying? There are several news outlets you can google yourself to find out what happened depending on whatever slant you prefer but what has not been refuted by anyone is what is listed below and on other sites I selected this version and cut in the relevant element below.
Fact vs. Narrative in the Trayvon Martin Case - The Truth About Guns

"In fact, the dispatcher specifically told Zimmerman to continue to report on Martin’s actions, as any competent dispatcher would. When Martin abruptly ran, Zimmerman ran a short distance, but lost sight of Martin before he could leave his truck. Zimmerman’s only intention was to keep Martin in sight so he could report to the police who he believed were on the way. Even if Zimmerman had been actively following Martin, that too would have been entirely lawful.The dispatcher asked if he was following Martin, and when Zimmerman said he was, he was told, “we don’t need you to do that.” Zimmerman, who had already lost Martin, replied, “OK,” and told the dispatcher he had lost Martin and had no idea where he was. It was about four more minutes before Martin, who was hiding somewhere in the immediate area, surprised and confronted Zimmerman, broke his nose with a sucker punch, knocked him to the ground, straddled him and repeatedly swung at his face and beat his head on a concrete sidewalk. There is no evidence, physical or testimonial, that Zimmerman so much as landed a single blow on Martin."

Again I repeat that I agree Zimmerman had every right to defend himself, but by following Martin and getting out of his vehicle to then pursue on foot is what ultimately led to the confrontation. I'm sorry if you don't agree but if someone is following me and then gets out of there car and looking around for me as Zimmerman was, there will be a confrontation especially if I can't find an escape. How would you perceive that if you were Martin? But hey if all you want to focus on is the fight, I'm all good. Yes Martin threw the first punch.

Bull****.

Martin deciding to circle back 400 feet to approach and confront Zimmerman (who was where he had a lawful right to be, doing what he had a lawful right to be doing), in order to put "bangaz on a cracka", is what led to the confrontation. Rachel Jeantel told him to go inside the townhome. Martin decided not to, in order to return to confront Zimmerman.

 

[chipbennett]

and all Zimmerman had to do was stay in his car and nothing would have happened either.

Filed under: Safari Principle.

 

[jamil]

All this was hashed out in the "racist white man shoots an unarmed, angelic, innocent, black kid for wearing a hoodie" thread.

 

[chipbennett]

All this was hashed out in the "racist white man shoots an unarmed, angelic, innocent, black kid for wearing a hoodie" thread.

Clearly not, since it keeps coming up like heartburn after bad pizza.