Steel jacket ammo

[cordex]

Is steel jacketed ammunition prohibited at your range?

My dad was told by an employee at the range that his Tul-Ammo was "steel core" and thus prohibited. This was demonstrated by showing a magnet would stick to the bullet. Obviously it isn't actually steel core since this is newly imported stuff and that would cause it to run afoul of 18 USC sec. 922(a)(7) if it were.

Granted, the jacket is a thin layer of copper-washed mild steel which can be attracted by a magnet but the core is regular lead, but that isn't the same thing as steel core. Is a mild steel jacket significantly more damaging to your range than a typical copper or brass jacket?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

What caliber?

in 9x19, the only Tulammo I've shot: The bullet of 9×19 consists of two elements, i.e.:

• copper or bimetal jacket
• lead core

Directly from 9mm Luger (9×19) « tulammousa.com

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Incidentally, I looked through the similar page for EVERY one of their offerings.

Know what it said?

The exact same thing for each cartridge. Copper or bimetal jacket and lead core.

Whoever it was you spoke with is, simply, ignorant of Tulammo's construction.

I suggest that you print off the page for the cartridge you're shooting and take it with you next time.

-J-

 

[windellmc]

I think the bimetal jacket is copper over steel. It is not steel core but steel jacket.

 

[cordex]

Right, I realize that Tul Ammo has a mild steel jacket, I just wanted clarification from ITP on whether or not they actually prohibit it or whether one of their employees was reading too much into what his magnet was telling him.

 

[HamsterStyle]

I was told the same thing the first time I went down there. I just picked up some cheap brass cased stuff and saved the tulammo for another day.

 

[cordex]

Do the folks from ITP have any guidance on this?

 

[Spiorad-Fola]

The concern is mostly for over-penetration, as a steel jacketed round may punch through the backstop material (potentially). As there is a mechanic shop and some apartments behind their building, erring on the side of caution may be the safest bet...lol.

 

[cordex]

The concern is mostly for over-penetration, as a steel jacketed round may punch through the backstop material (potentially). As there is a mechanic shop and some apartments behind their building, erring on the side of caution may be the safest bet...lol.

First of all, I could see how a round the backstop is not rated for could cause damage (i.e., the 5.7mm that someone loosed at it a while back). However, the backstop is rated for well beyond 9mm and the mild steel jacket doesn't contribute to penetration. We're not talking a sharpened steel core - just a thin steel and copper jacket.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

First of all, I could see how a round the backstop is not rated for could cause damage (i.e., the 5.7mm that someone loosed at it a while back). However, the backstop is rated for well beyond 9mm and the mild steel jacket doesn't contribute to penetration. We're not talking a sharpened steel core - just a thin steel and copper jacket.

The lack of response is...disturbing...

I think that having the Tul-ammo print-offs in hand at the store SHOULD be enough to convince anyone with more than 2-brain cells to rub together that Tul-Ammo IS. NOT. STEEL. CORE. AMMO. Period.

-J-

 

[cordex]

The lack of response is...disturbing...

To be fair, ITP is pretty busy and this isn't the only forum they have a presence on. Answering every question immediately just isn't possible. That said, it has been about a week.

I think that having the Tul-ammo print-offs in hand at the store SHOULD be enough to convince anyone with more than 2-brain cells to rub together that Tul-Ammo IS. NOT. STEEL. CORE. AMMO. Period.-J-

I have to believe that gun store clerks could figure out if they thought about it. It is current production, current import and is being sold at Wal-Mart to all comers instead out of customs bonded warehouses only to LEOs. Definitely not steel core.

The real question is whether there is something special about their backstop that makes it vulnerable to the tiny bit of mild steel used in the jacket.

 

[Spiorad-Fola]

I'm curious as to what the issue actually is here anymore.....
Is it because the ammo is dirt cheap, or because someone had the temerity to tell you you couldn't do something? Whether the staff is right or wrong on the composition seems irrelevant, if they had a rule that you could only shoot Tul-Ammo, would you be railing against them for not letting you use WWB?
They've always been good to me when I go in, so I don't mind respecting their wishes, plus I refuse to feed my babies trash, S&B is about the cheapest I'll go. Besides, unlike some places, they don't make me buy my ammo from them, which is awesome, because I can't afford $50 a box on 38th street.....
I'd say you have two easy solutions until someone from the store chimes in: use a different ammo, or build your own range and do what ya like.
(I think the first option is probably the most cost efficient.)

 

[cordex]

Is it because the ammo is dirt cheap, or because someone had the temerity to tell you you couldn't do something?

Cheap ammo, mostly. They didn't tell me to do or not to do anything, and for the record I don't buy Tul-ammo. This isn't about being upset about being told off at all. We were told a certain ammo is prohibited because it was something it wasn't. I'm checking to see if there is another reason it is prohibited or if the employee was wrong altogether.

Whether the staff is right or wrong on the composition seems irrelevant

Except it isn't.

, if they had a rule that you could only shoot Tul-Ammo, would you be railing against them for not letting you use WWB?

If all I could shoot was Tul-Ammo I probably wouldn't shoot there much. Or if they required people buy ammo at the store.

They've always been good to me when I go in, so I don't mind respecting their wishes, plus I refuse to feed my babies trash, S&B is about the cheapest I'll go. Besides, unlike some places, they don't make me buy my ammo from them, which is awesome, because I can't afford $50 a box on 38th street.....

I'm not railing against these guys, nor do I have a problem following their rules. I'm just asking a question because we were told something that is demonstrably false as a reason we couldn't do something.

I'd say you have two easy solutions until someone from the store chimes in: use a different ammo, or build your own range and do what ya like.
(I think the first option is probably the most cost efficient.)

One more time, I don't shoot Tul-Ammo. I reload my ammo or use brass cased stuff that I can later reload. My dad (a relatively new shooter) was running the stuff and was told - incorrectly - that it was steel core when it was in fact steel jacketed. I understand that steel core ammunition is bad for backstops, so prohibiting that makes sense. The reason I came here to ask the question was because I was trying to find out if the employee was simply wrong about what is actually prohibited (steel core vs. steel jacket) or if there is a legitimate reason for prohibiting steel jacket as well.

Also, we've been back there since and my dad brought brass-cased 9mm. FWIW, the shooters next to us were running Tul-Ammo.

 

[perry]

To be fair, ITP is pretty busy and this isn't the only forum they have a presence on. Answering every question immediately just isn't possible. That said, it has been about a week.

Indyvet hasn't been online since mid February... I emailed him towards the end of March / beginning of April and didn't get a response. Seems he's not checking here any more

 

[Eprobertson1]

Borrowed this from the internet. This might help or cause more discussion.

Just remember that it's their ball so their rules are the only thing that matters.

"Not only the cases of Wolf rifle ammo are steel. Most of Wolf's rifle cartridges use steel jacketed bullets, though they look like copper jacketed. The copper exterior of the bullet is only about .005 inch thick, (about twice the thickness of a sheet of paper) with a steel jacket underneath about 1/32 inch thick. Only the cartridges in the yellow and black boxes have real copper jackets. The core of the steel jacketed bullets, sometimes marked "bimetal", are lead. Some rifle ranges have started magnet testing shooter's ammunition to determine if bullets are steel jacketed. The steel is said to be more likely to ricochet, and also to cause sparks on impact, which can be a problem when shooting in dry grassland, or forest areas. In addition, a large majority of pistol ranges will not allow shooters to use Wolf, or other Russian ammunition types because of the steel jacket components on many of their products. An oft-cited reason for this is because they claim it damages the backstops. A more likely reason for not allowing steel-cased ammunition is that the ranges are unable to re-sell the berdan-primed steel cases for reloading, an important source of revenue for many ranges."

 

[Hogwylde]

I'm curious as to what the issue actually is here anymore.....

The ISSUE here is that the bi-metal steel jackets of these bullets have the potential to cause sparks when they strike the backstop.

Now think about this gents.....you are in an enclosed space....throwing projectiles downrange with GUNPOWDER. You never get 100% burn do you? You always have little bits of it remaining in your pistols after you shoot them don't you? Well, you also have lots of little bits of unburned gunpowder floating about inside the range. And, just like grain dust or sugar dust, once you get an explosive concentration buildup somewhere....any little spark would be able to set it off.

Anyone ever see the effect of a grain/sugar dust explosion? If you have, you wouldn't want to be anywhere nearby, let alone inside a gun range when one happens.

That is the issue. It's not damage to the backstop, it's the sparking that can POSSIBLY happen with steel case/steel core ammo.

 

[cordex]

Just remember that it's their ball so their rules are the only thing that matters.

Of course. I'm just asking for clarification of their rules.

The ISSUE here is that the bi-metal steel jackets of these bullets have the potential to cause sparks when they strike the backstop.

Now think about this gents.....you are in an enclosed space....throwing projectiles downrange with GUNPOWDER. You never get 100% burn do you? You always have little bits of it remaining in your pistols after you shoot them don't you? Well, you also have lots of little bits of unburned gunpowder floating about inside the range. And, just like grain dust or sugar dust, once you get an explosive concentration buildup somewhere....any little spark would be able to set it off.

Anyone ever see the effect of a grain/sugar dust explosion? If you have, you wouldn't want to be anywhere nearby, let alone inside a gun range when one happens.

That is the issue. It's not damage to the backstop, it's the sparking that can POSSIBLY happen with steel case/steel core ammo.

So let me get this straight. Your concern is that unburned powder will accumulate on the floor near the firing line (valid point - it does happen) and the possibility of a spark from the jacket striking the backstop will ignite the powder from all the way across the room? But muzzle flashes and sparks from the muzzle flash (watch sometime, it isn't always just a neat little ball of fire) nearer to the accumulated powder aren't more of a threat? Plus, they do a pretty good job keeping the floors swept at ITP.

I've heard of flash fires happening at indoor ranges where powder on the floor will burn, but never of a dust explosion, and again, the muzzle flashes would be far more likely to set off a dust explosion than impact sparks.

 

[Eprobertson1]

Of course. I'm just asking for clarification of their rules.

Their policy is NO STEEL JACKETED AMMO. It' posted and is even told to customers. It really doesn't matter why, it's their policy. End of discussion.

Sorry for being so point blank, but Oh my Goodness!!!

 

[cordex]

Their policy is NO STEEL JACKETED AMMO. It' posted and is even told to customers.

I hadn't seen that posted, and what was told to us was "No steel core ammo". I'll look for the signs next time I'm there.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I've seen them sell Tulammo for use in their rental guns... so I'd say it's not prohibited!

*Edit* Sounds like I could have been mistaken, but it was very soon after they'd opened the range, so maybe they implemented that policy after that time. Or I could be fulla ... Often am!