Stopped by LEO, gun taken for officer safety, how not to take it back

[cordex]

When I was a cop and made a traffic stop and the person said they had a gun I all ways took the gun with me while I wrote the traffic ticket. I verified they had a gun permit and all ways gave the gun back unloaded and asked them to load it once I left. It is lawful for an officer to do this for his safety.

I think there is a time and place for this. I've had cops do as you advocate, as well as cops who said "You leave yours alone and I'll leave mine alone, sound good?"

Guess which approach I respected more?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

So what happens exactly, if you decide to load the weapon before the officer leaves (assuming nobody gets shot)?

I mean - unless I'm being detained/arrested - why can an officer simply tell me to do something that requires my cooperation?

You could come up to me and tell me to stand on the roof of my car until you left [which isn't an illegal request], and I would refuse. How is telling me not to load (a legal action) my (legal) weapon in a location that is not illegal to do so be a request I was required to comply with?

Not a damn thing, they stare at you while they are walking back to their car.

This was of course AFTER they tried to put my pistol in the backseat WITH my son!!!

They were also clueless about the several other loaded and accessible weapons in the vehicle including an AK and a shotgun plus two other pistols in my reach and my wife's in her purse.

Disarming for "officer safety" when you aren't taking their ass to jail and impounding their car is a JOKE.

 

[Hohn]

I think it is pretty clearly established that this law is not clearly established.

Bingo.


The root of this discussion is that there is inherent tension between granting our public servants the latitude needed to exercise sound judgment and depriving the citizenry of their rights when that judgement is improperly exercised.

The law cannot account for every possibility. What does "reasonable" mean? A LEO pulls over a guy who is armed and blows .05 and it acting a little strange, does have have a "reasonable" concern for his safety? How do you define "a threat"?

You're always going to have some cops who disarm because, reasonable or not, they value their own safety over your rights, and the law allows them to.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Bingo.


The root of this discussion is that there is inherent tension between granting our public servants the latitude needed to exercise sound judgment and depriving the citizenry of their rights when that judgement is improperly exercised.

The law cannot account for every possibility. What does "reasonable" mean? A LEO pulls over a guy who is armed and blows .05 and it acting a little strange, does have have a "reasonable" concern for his safety? How do you define "a threat"?

You're always going to have some cops who disarm because, reasonable or not, they value their own safety over your rights, and the law allows them to.

A couple things:

1. As I have said before, taking a pistol from someone who tells them about in NO WAY increases safety for ANYONE. There are often other weapons and what threat does someone pose that TELLS you about his weapon?

2. The law does not allow them to violate your rights, they MUST have a reason for it then it becomes allowable. The reasons may vary from place to place but arbitrarily disarming citizens is wrong and can cause all sorts of problems.

 

[KG1]

When I was a cop and made a traffic stop and the person said they had a gun I all ways took the gun with me while I wrote the traffic ticket. I verified they had a gun permit and all ways gave the gun back unloaded and asked them to load it once I left. It is lawful for an officer to do this for his safety.

I don't see how this ideology can hold water anyway because there is no duty to inform a LEO in Indiana that you are legally carrying a firearm.

Is it just the fact that you are aware of the firearm alone that makes you feel less safe or is it coupled with the actions of the person?

Seems to me your MO was to take possession of the firearm in all occasions because of the simple fact that it was present.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Seems to me your MO was to take possession of the firearm in all occasions because of the simple fact that it was present.

The firearm?

I don't get it either and especially when the cops take a gun thinking that the person stopped does not have other guns on them.

When Officer Happypants took my 1911 and waved it about Broad Ripple I still had two other guns on me.

Seems to me there should have to be a articulable reason (dude was squirrelly, nervous in the service, high as a kite, inter alia). Statute makes more sense to me as a Court of Appeals decision: 1) will only address narrow circumstances, 2) will not be drafted with gun owners interest in mind.

 

[KG1]

The firearm?

I don't get it either and especially when the cops take a gun thinking that the person stopped does not have other guns on them.

When Officer Happypants took my 1911 and waved it about Broad Ripple I still had two other guns on me.

Seems to me there should have to be a articulable reason (dude was squirrelly, nervous in the service, high as a kite, inter alia). Statute makes more sense to me as a Court of Appeals decision: 1) will only address narrow circumstances, 2) will not be drafted with gun owners interest in mind.

That's kind of what I was getting at. If a LEO is gonna use the "officer safety" reason to take possession of a known firearm solely on the basis that there is one present sans the persons demeanor then what's to say that there are not other firearms that the officer is not aware of?

The LEO couldn't just use the "officer safety" argument to search any person or vehicle for potential weapons that could do him harm sans RAS to do so before issuing a traffic citation.

Why then should A LEO be able to take possession of a known firearm at will in the name of "officer safety" without any articulable reason other than the fact a firearm was present and it made him feel uncomfortable in a traffic stop situation?

 

[1911 DeadHead]

I do enjoy theses legal debates on INGO, but they are just that, debates of theory. You need to think about the huge gap between legal theory and practical recourse. First, most cops would just probably set your gun down and say take it or don't..I don't care. Or, maybe they would drop it in property like Denny said and it would be a long, long time before it gets sent for testing (every gun that comes in does) and you finally get it back. In reality our property room is a mess and things get lost. If you wanted to blow your life savings to defend your principals in this matter you can, but the realities of filling, waiting, re-filing, more waiting, years of litigation, more money..more money, etc. would get old real quick. The battle for justice is not one of principal, it's a war of attrition..your resources v. the governments.

I love how you say "things get lost".

In the end, if they want to take your weapon illegally, they will. It's funny how the government will break laws to get what they want, but if I want to download a movie off piratebay I could be punished.

Plus there is the always famous, "I smell marijuana in the vehicle."

 

[jedi]

I love how you say "things get lost".

In the end, if they want to take your weapon illegally, they will. It's funny how the government will break laws to get what they want, but if I want to download a movie off piratebay I could be punished.

Plus there is the always famous, "I smell marijuana in the vehicle."

All animals are equal, some animals are more equal then others.
BTW here is a good book for you to read.
http://www.greatwhitedesert.org/documents/Ross_-_Unintended_Consequences.pdf

 

[1911 DeadHead]

All animals are equal, some animals are more equal then others.
BTW here is a good book for you to read.
http://www.greatwhitedesert.org/documents/Ross_-_Unintended_Consequences.pdf

Well said jedi, and thank you for the literature.

 

[rw496]

Plus there is the always famous, "I smell marijuana in the vehicle."

That one is the best. I'm gonna miss that one.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Seems to me if you couldn't articulate why you felt that way then where would the justification for disarming come from?

In those instances did you feel that they were acting in a dangerous manner while armed?

Officer safety, no, MY personal safety. I listen to 6th sense, it maybe wrong, but I'm going to listen to it. I'd much rather be wrong, sued into the poorhouse; yet alive, than wrong and dead.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Officer safety, no, MY personal safety. I listen to 6th sense, it maybe wrong, but I'm going to listen to it. I'd much rather be wrong, sued into the poorhouse; yet alive, than wrong and dead.

Plus...

You know that there's a 99.999999999% chance that folks will just want to get the contact over with, get their stuff back, and be on their way.

 

[Denny347]

Officer safety, no, MY personal safety. I listen to 6th sense, it maybe wrong, but I'm going to listen to it. I'd much rather be wrong, sued into the poorhouse; yet alive, than wrong and dead.

Only "wrong" in opinion...

 

[KG1]

Officer safety, no, MY personal safety. I listen to 6th sense, it maybe wrong, but I'm going to listen to it. I'd much rather be wrong, sued into the poorhouse; yet alive, than wrong and dead.

I see except your personal safety is the same thing as officer safety because you are a LEO.

You could not go about disarming someone as a civilian for your own personal safety because of a 6th sense vibe in the same fashion you could as a LEO.

 

[Mrs.BDBHoover]

If it was me...I would take it back. You pay good money for guns (well some don't) so I would want it back after everything has been checked and I'm good to go on my way. I have no problem with an officer taking my gun for safety reasons. All the recent stories on the news about officer getting shot on traffic stops. Yep if I was an officer I would feel better about it being in my possession until I'm satisfied with all the checks.
Just saying......

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If it was me...I would take it back. You pay good money for guns (well some don't) so I would want it back after everything has been checked and I'm good to go on my way. I have no problem with an officer taking my gun for safety reasons. All the recent stories on the news about officer getting shot on traffic stops. Yep if I was an officer I would feel better about it being in my possession until I'm satisfied with all the checks.
Just saying......

Would you feel the same way as you are being frisked like a criminal and you loaded weapon pointed at your family while they stay in the car while a clueless cop tries unsuccessfully to unload your firearm in the middle of the street?

How about when you realize it was completely pointless as there were still several loaded weapons in your immediate vicinity? Or the fact that you pose no threat to him to begin with.

Messing with guns on the side of the road is UNSAFE no matter who does it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Pfffft, I read this gun expurt forum, INGO, and they say that it is perfectly safe to unload and load guns in the middle of Creation. The magic force field stops any bullets.

 

[blamecharles]

If it was me...I would take it back. You pay good money for guns (well some don't) so I would want it back after everything has been checked and I'm good to go on my way. I have no problem with an officer taking my gun for safety reasons. All the recent stories on the news about officer getting shot on traffic stops. Yep if I was an officer I would feel better about it being in my possession until I'm satisfied with all the checks.
Just saying......

How about all those stories of police impersonators? Those are fun stories too. I'm glad you have no problem with being disarmed for officer safety, but I have a problem being denied Charles' safety especially because I don't give reasons to.

 

[blamecharles]

Pfffft, I read this gun expurt forum, INGO, and they say that it is perfectly safe to unload and load guns in the middle of Creation. The magic force field stops any bullets.

Ahh but what if gun is not loaded?