Straw Purchase?

[chezuki]

Not sure about that.

Then it would be a straw purchase to buy a gun for your kid if he's under 18 for a rifle or 21 for a handgun.
Which from what I understand is not the case.
You just have to buy a gun for someone who can legally OWN it, not purchase it, i.e. not a felon.

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you can legally own and even carry (albeit with a LTCH) a handgun at 18, you just can't "buy" one until you're 21.

 

[Sylvain]

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you can legally own and even carry (albeit with a LTCH) a handgun at 18, you just can't "buy" one until you're 21.

If you are under 21 you cant buy a handgun from a dealer (FFL), but you can buy one in a private sale.

So yes at 18 with a LTCH you can buy (not from a dealer), own, and carry a handgun.
You also cant buy the ammo for your handgun until you are 21 even though you can own and carry it (go figure the law ).
You can also have one gifted (as long as you are not a felon and such) to you and be the owner of it, and carry it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I would like to get Kirk's opinion on that matter.

Straw purchase or not, it can still fire by itself! (sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[ATM]

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you can legally own and even carry (albeit with a LTCH) a handgun at 18, you just can't "buy" one until you're 21.

...You also cant buy the ammo for your handgun until you are 21 even though you can own and carry it (go figure the law ).

An FFL is restricted from selling a handgun or ammunition suitable only for use in a handgun to anyone under 21. The restriction is not on the buyer.

For everyone else (non Federal licensees), the minimum age (for both handguns and ammo) is 18 unless their state law specifically raises that age limit (Indiana does not).

 

[BlueEagle]

What about this scenario?

Hypothetical: 18 year old Timmy lives in Indiana and has his carry permit. He wants a pistol, but has no friends or relatives selling any. So he and his father Tom go to the local gun shop and pick out a gun which is purchased with Timmy's money. Since the general consensus is that it is ok for a parent to purchase a gun for their child, where does this fall?

 

[CarmelHP]

What about this scenario?

Hypothetical: 18 year old Timmy lives in Indiana and has his carry permit. He wants a pistol, but has no friends or relatives selling any. So he and his father Tom go to the local gun shop and pick out a gun which is purchased with Timmy's money. Since the general consensus is that it is ok for a parent to purchase a gun for their child, where does this fall?

It's not a straw purchase to buy as a gift. It is a straw purchase to stand in the place of a purchaser because the purchaser is subject to a legal impediment. If an FFL is involved then yes, it's a straw purchase, and no, nobody, even ATF, gives a damn.

 

[ryang]

So if I am 19 (gonna be 20 next week lol but thats not important) and I want to go shooting, can I have a friend go pick up the ammo for me without it being considered a straw purchase?

 

[Dirc]

It's not a straw purchase to buy as a gift.

To support this, from the ATF website:

"Federal law prohibits one person from purchasing firearms on another’s behalf except as a bona fide gift" [emphasis added.]

USAO Press Release - Houstonian Sentenced to Prison for Lying to Buy Guns

 

[CarmelHP]

So if I am 19 (gonna be 20 next week lol but thats not important) and I want to go shooting, can I have a friend go pick up the ammo for me without it being considered a straw purchase?

The straw purchase prohibition doesn't extend to ammo.

 

[KG1]

The straw purchase prohibition doesn't extend to ammo.

^This^ It does'nt matter who buys the ammo as long as they are 21. Don't even have to fill out a form to buy ammo.

 

[Jake46184]

Neither was a straw purchase. Educate yourself.

 

[MMRUSH]

Havent you ever bought your wife a gift and used it. Ha Ha. A gift is a gift your daughter has every right to own a firearm especially when she moves out on her own.

 

[japartridge]

If you are under 21 you cant buy a handgun from a dealer (FFL), but you can buy one in a private sale.

So yes at 18 with a LTCH you can buy (not from a dealer), own, and carry a handgun.
You also cant buy the ammo for your handgun until you are 21 even though you can own and carry it (go figure the law ).
You can also have one gifted (as long as you are not a felon and such) to you and be the owner of it, and carry it.

This is correct, I know 'cause I carried a Colt Combat Commander at 18 with a legal LTCH. Couldn't buy ammo, but I could own and carry.

 

[Panama]

Seymour Man Accused Of Trading Guns To Mexican Cartel

Thread resurrection with update.

This "is" a group of well documented Straw purchases, and some local people are in a heap of trouble!

I seriously hope these are NOT INGO'ers.

Link to full story below;
Seymour Man Accused Of Trading Guns To Mexican Cartel

WBIW.com - 1340 AM, Bedford, Indiana

 

[ryknoll3]

To throw another wrench in the works, there is NO SUCH crime as a straw purchase. I believe "straw purchase" is a legal term of art. (or whatever they call that)

There are two federal laws you can run afoul of when you purchase a gun for someone else:

1. Falsifying a Federal document. If you buy a gun on a 4473, you must check that you are the actual PURCHASER of the firearm. Both scenarios listed above would be legal because you are purchasing with your own money and then GIFTING the firearm to the eventual recipient. If you use someone else's money, you can not truthfully check this box in the affirmative and would be guilty of falsifying the form. There is actually no law that prohibits you from buying a firearm and immediately turning around and selling it to someone else, unless the ATF could prove that this was your intent all along, then you wouldn't be the actual purchaser.

Blue Eagle's scenario with "Timmy" would fall under this statute, because by using Timmy's money, the father could not truthfully check "Yes" to the "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" question.

2. Transferring a firearm to a prohibited person. If either of the people that the parents gifted the firearm to were not allowed by law to possess it, they would be guilty of this. In the second scenario, since the daughter doesn't actually have access to the firearm without parents' permission/presence, she would be OK legally, as there are provisions in the law for minor children to possess firearms, usually with a parent/guardian present. I don't know of any Federal law prohibiting possession by minors, but I know she could run afoul of state law. The guns locked in the parents-only safe mitigates this.

 

[j706]

I liked the youtube video where the female ATFE attorney was talking about what type of person DOES NOT have an ID. While I agree 100% I find it kinda ironic that the government puts something like that out but yet does not support requiring photo ID's to vote. Hmmmmm.

 

[eblevins]

State laws permit 18 year olds to be issued ltc upon request. Federal laws require a person to be 21 years of age to purchase a hand gun. A parent or legal guardian can purchase and give a handgun to their son or daughter at age 18 if they are a proper citizen and not prohibited from owning a firearm. In my opinion there were no examples of straw purchases in any of the examples unless the person receiving the gun was prohibited from owning a firearm. (FELON)

 

[kludge]

I would like opinions on the following scenarios.

1. Wife buys husband a gun and gives it to him for his birthday a month later. She fills out a 4473 at the FFL. The gun goes into the family gun safe which both spouses have access to. They both go to the range and shoot it from time to time. And sometimes he just shoots it by himself.

Question, who does the gun really belong to? Was a "straw purchase" made?

I don't think it really matters who the gun belongs to. Wife buys a gun as a gift, so I guess technically it's hers until his birthday, then it's his. Assuming she states on the 4473 that she is the actual purchaser this is not a straw purchase as long as the husband is not a prohibited person. If they both have access to the safe that means... well you can't steal something that you have permission to take... like my wife and I both have a set of keys to each of the vehicles even though my name is on all of the titles, like the wifes name is on the 4473... it just doesn't really matter in this situation.

2. 14 year old daughter loves shooting bullseye pistol, trap, smallbore rifle with her dad. He decides she is ready for a great gun for one of those disciplines, you pick which one.. He buys the gun through an FFL and on her next birthday makes the presentation to her. The gun goes into the family gunsafe that only her parents can access. The gun is taken out for practice and matches which she shoots. Dad says, the gun is yours. When you leave the home after you graduate from HS or whatever, take the gun with you.

Question, since she is prohibited from possessing a firearm because of her age, was it a "straw purchase"? Who does the gun really belong to?

Actually, she is not a prohibited person (the way I read it) she is only prohibited from purchasing firearms from a dealer, and can legally possess firearms, as long as it's for the purpose of using them in certain activities. Even if she had access to the safe, there's not a problem, IMO. If the dad gave it as a gift, it belongs to the daughter, technically, but there is a legal obligation for the parents -- there is a potential that they can be prosecuted if they are negligent or reckless.

 

[inccwchris]

On the first count no, here is the text:
From the back of the ATF Form 4473:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

The second case is not a straw purchase, one can purchase a firearm for their son or daughter and put their name down as the owner/transferee IF AND ONLY IF the firearm is a rifle intended for a minor under the age of 18 OR a handgun intended for a minor under the age of 21. Since she is now of age to own a firearm, the firearm is being legally gifted to her from her parent who purchased it for her use while she was still under legal age of possession.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn three nights last week on vacation in Michigan? So I say NO?!?