Surrendering your weapon

[Roadie]

Though I will not disarm a person unless I have a good reason for doing so, I find your reasoning interesting TF (and I'm going to give you a lil grief over it).

You stated that it's a "100X safer" to allow a person to keep their firearm on them. That begs the question, "for who?". I am unaware of any instance where an officer has removed a firearm from a complete stranger, and in the course of doing so, injures the person they are disarming. However, there are a number of instances where people have injured with their personal firearms.

If one follows the "safer" premise, then I think one would believe that "perceived" safety for the officer would trump the civilian if the contact made was based on a legitimate LE contact (ie, someone does something wrong, and police respond).

I am unaware of any instances where a Licensed gun owner, who was OCing, shot a police officer after being asked for their License to carry...

When it's in possession of a stranger during an adversarial encounter.

Key word "adversarial". If the citizen is merely carrying a gun, that does not make the encounter adversarial...

 

[daddymikey1975]

When it's in possession of a stranger during an adversarial encounter.

If the officer takes the weapon from legally carrying citizen, then, by your own definition, the weapon is (now) in possession by a stranger (the LEO is a stranger to the legally carrying citizen) and by trampling on the rights of the citizen, turned this situation into an 'adversarial encounter'.. most things are a matter of perspective IMO.

Present the LTCH w/ license/registration, etc. keep hands in plain sight. answer all questions w/ "why am I being detained?" "I am exercising my right to remain silent", "am I free to go" etc..

Do not consent to any search or seizure. Vocalize (professionally) your opinion on the matter. If the officer makes the conscious choise to physically disarm you, either do something about it (then and there, or later.. your choice) or don't.

Either way, if the officer acts illegally, make a public spectacle out of it in any manner you wish. Sue, call the TV stations, write a letter to the department... whatever fits.

I'm all for openness and honesty.. you never know.. after being presented w/ LTCH and license/registration and being informed of a weapon at your side (after asking of course) the LEO might be too afraid of getting shot to issue a ticket.

I've always subscribed to the theory of "don't create an issue until it becomes one".. this begs the circular question, "when does the firearm become an issue?"..

after presentation of valid LTCH and LEO has verified the person has no outstanding warrants, etc... then firearm becomes a non-issue..

as a matter of procedure, (for example) a person could have a LTCH issued a couple years ago (and was legal for it, THEN)... but 8 months ago, maybe they were convicted and found guilty of "D felony, theft".. the "valid on the face" LTCH won't reveal this additional info. at what point does the LEO respond to this additional info? Are they to leave the person in possession of their firearm until they have a reason to believe the person is not a 'proper person' (felon) ?? .. once they determins the laws are broken, then they may disarm the driver. But what if the driver becomes confrontational at that point ?? "I was never convicted of that".. blah blah...

The horse gets beat, the questions and "what ifs" abound... Do what you feel is right but don't let anyone take away your rights

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If the officer takes the weapon from legally carrying citizen, then, by your own definition, the weapon is (now) in possession by a stranger (the LEO is a stranger to the legally carrying citizen) and by trampling on the rights of the citizen, turned this situation into an 'adversarial encounter'.. most things are a matter of perspective IMO.

Present the LTCH w/ license/registration, etc. keep hands in plain sight. answer all questions w/ "why am I being detained?" "I am exercising my right to remain silent", "am I free to go" etc..

Do not consent to any search or seizure. Vocalize (professionally) your opinion on the matter. If the officer makes the conscious choise to physically disarm you, either do something about it (then and there, or later.. your choice) or don't.

Either way, if the officer acts illegally, make a public spectacle out of it in any manner you wish. Sue, call the TV stations, write a letter to the department... whatever fits.

I'm all for openness and honesty.. you never know.. after being presented w/ LTCH and license/registration and being informed of a weapon at your side (after asking of course) the LEO might be too afraid of getting shot to issue a ticket.

I've always subscribed to the theory of "don't create an issue until it becomes one".. this begs the circular question, "when does the firearm become an issue?"..

after presentation of valid LTCH and LEO has verified the person has no outstanding warrants, etc... then firearm becomes a non-issue..

as a matter of procedure, (for example) a person could have a LTCH issued a couple years ago (and was legal for it, THEN)... but 8 months ago, maybe they were convicted and found guilty of "D felony, theft".. the "valid on the face" LTCH won't reveal this additional info. at what point does the LEO respond to this additional info? Are they to leave the person in possession of their firearm until they have a reason to believe the person is not a 'proper person' (felon) ?? .. once they determins the laws are broken, then they may disarm the driver. But what if the driver becomes confrontational at that point ?? "I was never convicted of that".. blah blah...

The horse gets beat, the questions and "what ifs" abound... Do what you feel is right but don't let anyone take away your rights

The reality is that this encounter is not nearly as vague and spur of the moment as your post would suggest. There are very clear cut laws, statutes and case law describing exactly when an officer may seize your property without a warrant. The public has been indoctrinated to believe cops have more authority than they really do and IMO cops have been trained (or become so on their own volition) to overstep their legal authority in the interest of 'officer safety.'

Ohio v Terry (Terry stop) is federal case law which states that an officer must have RAS that an individual is both armed and dangerous and in the commission of a crime before a search of their outer garments for weapons and the subsequent seizure is legal without a warrant. This is a very interesting statute when applied to OCers since it is fairly obvious to all where the weapon is- perhaps not the ONLY weapon but the easiest to deploy. Even in this case an officer must be able to articulate before a judge why they believed you to be a danger to yourself or others by your actions.

According to State v Richardson, an Indiana SC ruling, after showing a valid LTCH all further inquiry into firearms must cease. They can check your LTCH over the radio while watching you. They do not need to remove it from your possession to take it back to their car etc. In fact they have no legal authority under state and federal law providing there are no other aggravating circumstances.