The best solutions to pistol malfunctions.

[cedartop]

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - THE BEST SOLUTIONS TO PISTOL MALFUNCTIONS

Every trainer has their own opinion on this. I really like the way Gabe does it, and have been teaching this method with good success.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I like it, very straight forward.

Load the gun, if it doesn't work, unload it and reload it.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I'll echo what Kirk has said.

Simple and straight forward.

In essence, it doesn't matter what's caused a mfx, treat every stoppage the same. Don't think about it, FIX IT AND SHOOT.

And that reminds me. I need to practice some more...

-J-

 

[Steve MI]

so how do you do it during a good double feed when the gun is locked up tight and you need to strip the mag by locking the slide to the rear

 

[cedartop]

so how do you do it during a good double feed when the gun is locked up tight and you need to strip the mag by locking the slide to the rear

"It doesn't matter. The system works on everything from a Walther P99 to a 1911, and from a CZ75 to a Makarov. The only weapon this "ripping the magazine out" will not reliably work with is the Beretta 92F due to its swept magazine floorplate profile. When we teach US Mil guys or guys that are issued this, we do teach them to lock first, but that process is totally unecessary on any other handgun our staff has worked with in the USA or OCONUS. If someone does not have the physical strength to rip out the magazine, they probably do not have the strength to lock a slide either. Rather than dismiss it, test and try it with an open mind".

BTW, you did mean a failure to extract right?

 

[Gabe Suarez]

Hey guys. Thanks for the discussion. I am all about giving info out to every one since when one of you wins a gunfight, we all win.

OK...the clearance. Back in the day...I was in a few gunfights and I remember the adrenaline issues. In one event that I remember where I had a "disagreement" with two carjackers. To make a long story short, I was standing over the body of the driver reloading my shotgun (yup...ammo all gone ) and saw what the results of adrenaline did to me. I accomplished the task but holy smokes....leggs trembling...hands shaking. And that was not my first gunfight. So at that point I determined to make things simpler. Simpler is better.

And listen...any so-called professional that tells you that they are immune from the effects of adrenaline is a liar and has probably never fought anyone other than a grade school class mate. It does get lessened with desensitizing, but never goes away. So that is the perspective and reasoning for the process cedartop posted.

Now to address the Type Three question that Steve posted. The reality is that there is no such thing as a double feed. What happens is that the fired case does not get extracted, and a live round from the magazine gets fed into the system right behind it.

So it really doesn't matter. The system works on everything from a Walther P99 to a 1911, and from a CZ75 to a Makarov. The only weapon this "ripping the magazine out" will not reliably work with is the Beretta 92F due to its swept magazine floorplate profile. When we teach US Mil guys or guys that are issued this, we do teach them to lock first, but that process is totally unecessary on any other handgun our staff has worked with in the USA or OCONUS.

If someone does not have the physical strength to rip out the magazine, they probably do not have the strength to lock a slide either. Rather than dismiss it, test and try it with an open mind.

The other step that can be added is the same thing we do with the Kalashnikov platform that we teach and have taught since 2005. If all fails, and you have the time, completely unload the weapon, and then reload the weapon. Now THAT is simple enough to be able to do it when you are so scared you are about to poop yourself yes?

There is also the matter of knowing when to abandon the solution. There are in fact times when you will have a catastrophic malfunction and no amount of locking, tapping or praying will fix it. I saw this on the street once when we were running both Glock 17s and Glock 22s. We had one guy load up at the range in a hurry and dipped his hand into the 9mm can when loading his 22.

He was a part of a felony stop and began shooting. He got two rounds or so and his gun locked up tight. He dropped it and went for his secondary. Good on his part. It took me a mallet and a vice to open up that bastard.

I hope I cleared up any questions.

Gabriel Suarez

Suarez International USA
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Suarez International USA - Reality-Based Gunfight Training - (928) 776-4492[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
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[Neilbert]

With any malfunction... Start Simple... PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!!!

 

[Vanguard.45]

For those of you who haven't watched Gabe's DVDs or been to his classes. . .

. . .you are missing out!

I believe Gabe Suarez is one of the best trainers in the country when it comes to addressing the actual issues surrounding the art of "gunfighting."

I watch his DVDs and see a man who understands the concept of "transfer of training" and how all of the warrior arts are linked in spirit and strategy.

I see Gabe addressing issues relevant to what civilians are most likely to face when encountering individuals who mean them harm.

I have learned a great deal from Gabe Suarez, though I have never met the man (a reality I hope to change in the near future). I have yet to watch one of his DVDs or read one of his books and not walk away an improved person to be measured in my ability to think in a new way or plan in a new dimension. I am convinced his lessons have saved my life on numerous occasions while working in both local and federal law enforcement.

I just wanted to publicly say "Thanks" to Gabe Suarez because he is not only a good instructor, but a genuinely good man.

Keep up your noble ministry, sir. You are making a difference!

Vanguard.45

 

[SonOfLiberty]

I really like this idea... when I first started shooting handguns I basically transferred my military training to the gun as far as clearing and correcting malfunctions. No bang? Immediate, straight into remedial action if it doesn't go bang again. Recently I've started training towards the "diagnostic" or "problem-solving" approach which in my opinion works much better than "Immediate->Remedial" on a rifle...

But adapting the technique of "diagnostic clearing" to training with a handgun has been tough. Not tough to train that way... but tough to justify. You are running your handgun on a threat for one of two reasons: 1.it is your primary weapon, as would be the case with most people or 2. it is your secondary weapon, your primary weapon has run dry or malfunctioned, and you are within engagement range with your handgun.

If you are looking at it from the perspective of MIL/LEO individuals, they have, in most cases, two fall back weapons at a minimum: a handgun, and either a back up or a knife. The fall-back cycle of primary-secondary-tertiary weapons ensures that you have violence of action and can maintain the momentum of aggression. But if you're an individual who can't transition to another weapon, or your fall-back weapon malfunctions, how do you maintain that violence of action? Big, simple, gross motor movements that you can enact immediately to fix your weapon. If there is no fresh, functioning weapon then your current gun has to be put back into action as aggressively and simply as possible.

So... you take immediate (tap-rack-bang) and remedial (lock-inspect-clear) actions and take out all extraneous steps to create one big, no-thought, caveman movement.


TLDR version: Keep it simple, stupid.

 

[smccabe17]

This is the way I was taught at Tactical Response and it seems to be very simple. I have practiced this way alot and when I was in a Force on Force class when the adrenaline was pumping it is very easy to remember. Just practicing this also helped with the reloads. Smash the mag in and rack the slide and you are good to go. The last thing I would be thinking about is looking at the gun trying to figure out what is wrong instead of the focusing on the bad guy.

 

[Sticky]

How well does that work with a smokestack or with a double-feed where there is a fired casing in the chamber?

EDIT: What I mean is, I've tried clearing smokestacks, years ago, with tap-rack-bang but that frequently makes it worse when the case falls into the action instead of out of it.

 

[combat45acp]

How well does that work with a smokestack or with a double-feed where there is a fired casing in the chamber?

EDIT: What I mean is, I've tried clearing smokestacks, years ago, with tap-rack-bang but that frequently makes it worse when the case falls into the action instead of out of it.

That is why when I (how Uncle Sam taught me) tap, and rack I rotate the pistol upside down every time I pull the slide back, this helps the spent casing (stove pipe) or live round fall free, because the extractor is usually not engaged on the rim.

(not saying this is the best way, just how I have been taught and it works well for me)

 

[cedartop]

How well does that work with a smokestack or with a double-feed where there is a fired casing in the chamber?

EDIT: What I mean is, I've tried clearing smokestacks, years ago, with tap-rack-bang but that frequently makes it worse when the case falls into the action instead of out of it.

If you are speaking of a failure to eject, or "stovepipe", which I think you are, we do teach to rotate the pistol a bit. I can honestly say though, that after over 20 years of shooting semi-autos, I have never seen a case fall back into the action. Not saying it couldn't happen, just that I have never seen it. My guess would be that you are somehow hitting the case with your hand while doing the racking?

 

[Sticky]

...
My guess would be that you are somehow hitting the case with your hand while doing the racking?

I've seen them fall back into the action fairly often if one doesn't rotate the gun a bit; using tap-rack-bang. I used to see stovepipes frequently in action shooting w low powered loads when the 1911 recoil spring wasn't balanced with the load.

I've been using the Ayoob method for clearing stovepipes for over 20 years. That method has no chance of the case falling into the action and the gun can stay in any orientation. The Ayoob procedure actually requires the hand to contact the stovepiped case. Basically, one just rakes the case from the pistol with the edge of the hand. Often the case will actually rack the slide at the same time it is cleared.

 

[Gabe Suarez]

Sticky, if the "stovepipe" as you call it, has the case perpendicular to the slide that will work. However, if the failure to eject is horizontal in the ejection port, or deeper into the action, the only thing that will work with certainty is phyiscally grabbing the slide and working the action. What often happens is anything but a very obvious "smokestack" gets treated as a type three.

Again...the idea is to reduce if not eliminate any diagnosis of the weapon, thus making the enetire process faster. And yes, we do conduct a sharp flipping of the pistol on its side during the process.

 

[Roadie]

Sticky, if the "stovepipe" as you call it, has the case perpendicular to the slide that will work. However, if the failure to eject is horizontal in the ejection port, or deeper into the action, the only thing that will work with certainty is phyiscally grabbing the slide and working the action. What often happens is anything but a very obvious "smokestack" gets treated as a type three.

Again...the idea is to reduce if not eliminate any diagnosis of the weapon, thus making the enetire process faster. And yes, we do conduct a sharp flipping of the pistol on its side during the process.

Thanks for your insight, and welcome to INGO

 

[Sticky]

...
Again...the idea is to reduce if not eliminate any diagnosis of the weapon, thus making the enetire process faster. And yes, we do conduct a sharp flipping of the pistol on its side during the process.

By "stovepipe", I mean what some folks call a "smokestack" jam. The one that often occurs when there is too weak a hold on the pistol, or more rarely a weak load.

If you don't diagnose the double-feed during the first rack, doesn't that make it's cure a whole lot slower?

The method I've always used is tap-rack/rake-bang. If I see a case in the chamber (a double-feed) when I rack, then I interrupt the rack and lock the slide to the rear, remove mag, retain it under the shooting armpit, cycle the slide 2 or 3 times (until case ejects), insert a new mag if one is available (retained magazine otherwise), release slide.

If the case doesn't eject in 2 or 3 cycles, then the ejector/case head is probably broken/ripped through. Time to pull a backup gun, unless that was done as soon as the double-feed was recognized. If it's a ripped case then something like a D-Jammer tool will dislodge it. That takes too long if you have a backup, otherwise it's your last option.

Just racking the slide will aggravate a double-feed rather than clear the jam. I must've missed the part about the "sharp flipping" on the supplied url/link.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you don't diagnose the double-feed during the first rack, doesn't that make it's cure a whole lot slower?

Maybe, but who says you can see it. No, reduced, or altered lighting can be commonplace.

I like having an automatic response to the problem and who says I'll be fighting with my own pistol. Besides sometimes when you load the gun, a #3 will correct itself (rarely).

However, if the failure to eject is horizontal in the ejection port, or deeper into the action, the only thing that will work with certainty is phyiscally grabbing the slide and working the action.

Yes and sometimes you cut the ever living stuffing out of your hand.

Many moons ago I . . . er, a friend, thought he was really cool (he wasn't he was just young and dumb) and "wiped" off a horizontal smokestack. Lots of blood, but no stitches. Oh, remember, clean the blood off your pistol or wierd things can happen to the bluing.

 

[Sticky]

Yes and sometimes you cut the ever living stuffing out of your hand.

Many moons ago I . . . er, a friend, thought he was really cool (he wasn't he was just young and dumb) and "wiped" off a horizontal smokestack. Lots of blood, but no stitches. Oh, remember, clean the blood off your pistol or wierd things can happen to the bluing.

I've cleared many stovepipes in informal competition, which are common whenever you reload squibs and don't yet have the load balanced with the recoil spring. Never been cut once. It's easy to prevent as long as you don't run your hand into the open end of a case. They're pretty easy to see. Did your friend hit the case mouth with the web or the heel of your palm? Horizontal stovepipes left-to-right happen sometimes and are no problem; just rotate the pistol slightly counter-clockwise, turning it into a vertical stovepipe. Horizontal stovepipes front-to-back are exceedingly rare, in my experience. Vertical stovepipes are by far the most common.

The method is maybe hard to explain in print. Pictures can be found in the book, "The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense" by Ayoob; on pages 114 and 115. The method has been taught by Ayoob and used for decades by many PD's and individuals. It simply works.

I'd post the pictures, but they are copyrighted.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Sticky, I hit with my left forefinger as I ran my hand to wipe it off. The cut was along the finger where the finger meets the hand. I still carry a faint scar there.