The Culture War For Our Country Is A Real War...

[jamil]

Well, it can equally be said that the conservatives don't understand leftists. Further, the right is just as broken as the left, evidenced by the guy sitting in the WH. Trump seems to be one of the last gasps of Conservative ideology wish to retain power by any means that they can. I think it's folly, as conservatism should alway have a place, and thrive, but the Trump backlash may be the beginning of the end.

Conservatives and moderates could accurately predict how the left would answer questions on values. Progressives could not accurately predict how conservatives would answer the same questions. So no. It can’t be equally said.

I think the reason for that is progressives live in a bigger ideological bubble. For example, Hollywood and the media are predominately left. Hollywood portrays the right as uneducated, heartless idiots. Nearly everyone in journalism is on the left to far left. Many lefty activists become journalists and they present the same inaccurate view of conservatives as the movies and TV.

Conservatives are much more exposed to the left because, if you don’t live in a bunker, you can’t help but be exposed to it. Of course the right and the left aren’t monoliths either. Not everyone on the left misunderstands conservatives. Not all conservatives understand progressives. But it’s skewed enough to say it’s nowhere near equal.

Trump isn’t evidence of a broken Right. He is a natural conclusion of the broken left. That’s not to say some people on the right aren’t broken. But the left is orders of magnitude more broken. If you don’t think so, perhaps you’re among the people who don’t understand the right.

 

[churchmouse]

The culture war is a war. It was planned, launched and is being waged.

I have been watching this unfold my entire life.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Conservatives and moderates could accurately predict how the left would answer questions on values. Progressives could not accurately predict how conservatives would answer the same questions. So no. It can’t be equally said.

That's a dubious claim. I have heard conservatives say:
-the left wants open borders
-Muslims in America want Sharia law
-That they hate America
-They want a socialist, a la China/USSR/North Korea state

Sure there are some, but those ideas don't represent the vast majority of the left.

I think the reason for that is progressives live in a bigger ideological bubble. For example, Hollywood and the media are predominately left. Hollywood portrays the right as uneducated, heartless idiots. Nearly everyone in journalism is on the left to far left. Many lefty activists become journalists and they present the same inaccurate view of conservatives as the movies and TV.

Conservatives are much more exposed to the left because, if you don’t live in a bunker, you can’t help but be exposed to it. Of course the right and the left aren’t monoliths either. Not everyone on the left misunderstands conservatives. Not all conservatives understand progressives. But it’s skewed enough to say it’s nowhere near equal.

I also disagree with this. Sure Hollywood is dominated by the left, but government, is completely dominated (when taking the nation on the whole) by conservatives. Unless on lives off the grid, you can't avoid government anymore than you can a movie trailer. Liberals don't live in bubble, they simply don't care to consider the opinions of those that disagree with them. That can also be said of conservatives.

Trump isn’t evidence of a broken Right. He is a natural conclusion of the broken left. That’s not to say some people on the right aren’t broken. But the left is orders of magnitude more broken. If you don’t think so, perhaps you’re among the people who don’t understand the right.

This is a potato/potato statement, as it's the same thing looked upon from differing perspectives. The left IMO, isn't broken. There's no "final destination," for the movement. Leftist are continuously pushing for more and more weird, whilst conservatives are trying to dig in their feet as to not be dragged along. In an attempt to not simply be whisked away by liberalism, the right went extreme. They voted in a guy who exploits their fears and promises the world, and ignore all the things that make him decidedly NOT-Conservative.

Ask an 1996 Alabama conservative if they would vote for a draft dodging, profane, philandering, New Yorker, who has bankrupt businesses, scammed people, and doesn't know that Corinthians II - is pronounced "Second Corinthians?" ....You'd probably get a slap across the face.

Ask a 2016 Alabama Conservative the same question, but throw in fear mongering about Muslims, Mexicans, and various "others," taking away your country... add in a dash of socialism hysteria, and a bit of White male victimhood (which ironically, the converse is a tried and true leftist tactic), you probably have yourself a vote.

 

[printcraft]

That's a dubious claim. I have heard conservatives say:
-the left wants open borders
-Muslims in America want Sharia law
-That they hate America
-They want a socialist, a la China/USSR/North Korea state

Sure there are some, but those ideas don't represent the vast majority of the left.

Ummmmm... have you seen the platform of the 20 democrat candidates running for president in 2020?

If not, I have some news you can use.

 

[OakRiver]

There was a study done which showed that Leftists haven’t a clue what conservatives think. Moderates and conservatives were able to predict how people on the left would answer questions about various values, but people on the left were unable to predict how moderates and conservatives would answer those questions. Your post confirms the the results.

Do you have a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

 

[actaeon277]

Do you have a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/whos-better-at-pretending-to-be-the-other-sid/

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ummmmm... have you seen the platform of the 20 democrat candidates running for president in 2020?

If not, I have some news you can use.

If you're using the platform of those 20 members, and combining it all into one, then yeah, I can see where people would think there's a consensus of belief.... but since it is 20 difference people running for one office, I tend to think they have divergent opinions on how government should be run, rather that believe they all hold the same ideals and are just counting on good looks, and nice clothes, to set them apart.

 

[jamil]

That's a dubious claim. I have heard conservatives say:
-the left wants open borders
-Muslims in America want Sharia law
-That they hate America
-They want a socialist, a la China/USSR/North Korea state

Sure there are some, but those ideas don't represent the vast majority of the left.



I also disagree with this. Sure Hollywood is dominated by the left, but government, is completely dominated (when taking the nation on the whole) by conservatives. Unless on lives off the grid, you can't avoid government anymore than you can a movie trailer. Liberals don't live in bubble, they simply don't care to consider the opinions of those that disagree with them. That can also be said of conservatives.



This is a potato/potato statement, as it's the same thing looked upon from differing perspectives. The left IMO, isn't broken. There's no "final destination," for the movement. Leftist are continuously pushing for more and more weird, whilst conservatives are trying to dig in their feet as to not be dragged along. In an attempt to not simply be whisked away by liberalism, the right went extreme. They voted in a guy who exploits their fears and promises the world, and ignore all the things that make him decidedly NOT-Conservative.

Ask an 1996 Alabama conservative if they would vote for a draft dodging, profane, philandering, New Yorker, who has bankrupt businesses, scammed people, and doesn't know that Corinthians II - is pronounced "Second Corinthians?" ....You'd probably get a slap across the face.

Ask a 2016 Alabama Conservative the same question, but throw in fear mongering about Muslims, Mexicans, and various "others," taking away your country... add in a dash of socialism hysteria, and a bit of White male victimhood (which ironically, the converse is a tried and true leftist tactic), you probably have yourself a vote.

Read some of Jonathon Heidt's research on moral reasoning and then get back to me. The Righteous Mind is a good place to start. Otherwise we're not talking at the same depth.

 

[jamil]

Do you have a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

Tim Pool mentioned it in a video. It's from a reason.com article. I recognized what Tim was talking about from one of Haigt's books The Righteous Mind, which is a very good read, btw. I think the article was an excerpt from the book. I didn't look for the reason.com article, but I think you could search the site for Jonathan Haidt and find it. But really, I'd just buy the book. It really explains a lot of what I've found in my own observations. I've integrated a lot of that book into my own thinking.

 

[jamil]

https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/whos-better-at-pretending-to-be-the-other-sid/

Thought so. It's from The Righteous Mind.

 

[jamil]

If you're using the platform of those 20 members, and combining it all into one, then yeah, I can see where people would think there's a consensus of belief.... but since it is 20 difference people running for one office, I tend to think they have divergent opinions on how government should be run, rather that believe they all hold the same ideals and are just counting on good looks, and nice clothes, to set them apart.

There may be some minor differences, but all the policies are based on the same general narrative of life, and that has a direct impact on how society should be ordered. And that narrative, and thus the policies, are very different depending on which life narrative you have. The research has shown that progressives share the same basic narrative. Conservatives have a very different narrative. And moderates have integrated some versions of both in their own narratives.

Take abortion, for example. Moderates (both leaning left and right) end up with essentially the same policy, regardless of what they believe about the morality. That is that abortion should be allowed up until "viability", whatever that means to them. Beyond that, abortion is immoral. But progressives think that abortion should be allowed all the way up to birth. Traditional conservatives think that abortion should be illegal from conception, though some make allowances for exceptional cases. If you have a progressive narrative of the world you don't have to consult the progressive manual of acceptable policies, you are attracted to the policies you are because they derive from your narrative. (I'm not talking about tribalism here, where people do tend to consult the manual for purity's sake). But because you have the world view, you don't have to think much about which policies you think are right or moral.

I'll dig into Haidt's moral foundations theory a bit to explain why that is. Haidt's research found that cultures base their moral foundations into 6 different categories: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. His studies showed that progressives only have three of those; care/harm, fairness/cheating, and liberty/oppression. They tend not to have the loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, or sanctity/degradation moral foundations in their narrative of everything. This is mainly why progressives are incapable of predicting moderates and conservatives. Both those groups have all 6 foundations in their narratives and thus, some of their policy preferences are based on moral foundations progressives don't understand.

For example, you'll hear progressives say things like "there is no authority". This is because they don't see a moral basis for authority (which is mentally inconsistent with reality). This is why progressives tend to hate cops (if you're on the left, and you don't hate cops, your narrative has likely integrated authority/subersion as a moral foundation at least a little. Conservatives tend to support cops. The higher priority they place on the authority/subversion moral foundation, the more they tend to support cops.

So, people who have all these moral foundations are capable of understanding the basis for various public policies, though they'll differ on what policies they support because they have different priorities for each moral foundation. So this is the explanation for why conservatives and moderates tend to be able to predict how progressives would answer questions about moral values and underlying policies.

What you're talking about where you're saying conservatives do the same thing, has more due to tribalism, not moral foundations, or their narrative of everything.

 

[2A_Tom]

For those in doubt...

I recently opened a link that led me to this site. https://rightreport.com/

I have read a few articles since then and have had no red flags go up about content, but...

Some of the articles are linked to sights that while the content seems kosher, the names of the sights seem as though they may have a bent that I would possibly not want to associate with.

I may be totally wrong.

Here are a few of the sites that gave me pause

https://flagandcross.com/

https://clashdaily.com/

https://freedomoutpost.com/

If I am totally off base, please let me know.

The usual click bait/far right crap.
Designed to keep you consuming their 'Product'.

Like all 'Agenda' sites, I feel like I need a shower now...

 

[Kutnupe14]

There may be some minor differences, but all the policies are based on the same general narrative of life, and that has a direct impact on how society should be ordered. And that narrative, and thus the policies, are very different depending on which life narrative you have. The research has shown that progressives share the same basic narrative. Conservatives have a very different narrative. And moderates have integrated some versions of both in their own narratives.

Take abortion, for example. Moderates (both leaning left and right) end up with essentially the same policy, regardless of what they believe about the morality. That is that abortion should be allowed up until "viability", whatever that means to them. Beyond that, abortion is immoral. But progressives think that abortion should be allowed all the way up to birth. Traditional conservatives think that abortion should be illegal from conception, though some make allowances for exceptional cases. If you have a progressive narrative of the world you don't have to consult the progressive manual of acceptable policies, you are attracted to the policies you are because they derive from your narrative. (I'm not talking about tribalism here, where people do tend to consult the manual for purity's sake). But because you have the world view, you don't have to think much about which policies you think are right or moral.

I'll dig into Haidt's moral foundations theory a bit to explain why that is. Haidt's research found that cultures base their moral foundations into 6 different categories: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. His studies showed that progressives only have three of those; care/harm, fairness/cheating, and liberty/oppression. They tend not to have the loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, or sanctity/degradation moral foundations in their narrative of everything. This is mainly why progressives are incapable of predicting moderates and conservatives. Both those groups have all 6 foundations in their narratives and thus, some of their policy preferences are based on moral foundations progressives don't understand.

For example, you'll hear progressives say things like "there is no authority". This is because they don't see a moral basis for authority (which is mentally inconsistent with reality). This is why progressives tend to hate cops (if you're on the left, and you don't hate cops, your narrative has likely integrated authority/subersion as a moral foundation at least a little. Conservatives tend to support cops. The higher priority they place on the authority/subversion moral foundation, the more they tend to support cops.

So, people who have all these moral foundations are capable of understanding the basis for various public policies, though they'll differ on what policies they support because they have different priorities for each moral foundation. So this is the explanation for why conservatives and moderates tend to be able to predict how progressives would answer questions about moral values and underlying policies.

What you're talking about where you're saying conservatives do the same thing, has more due to tribalism, not moral foundations, or their narrative of everything.

Progressives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to assigning that belief to >50% of people who describe themselves as such. Is that what you are saying; specifically that most progressives believe that abortion should allowed up until the day before birth. And if you are say such, since you are essentially calling all or most of the Democrat candidates "progressives," do you believe they subscribe to such? This goes directly to your notion that conservatives understand liberals.

On the reverse of that coin. Many liberals think anti-abortion conservatives, are "anti" even in cases of rape and incest. Well that's as true as saying progressives are "pro-choice" all the way up to the birth of a fetus. Each side is able to take their opinions of the other to the Nth degree.

 

[jamil]

Progressives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to assigning that belief to >50% of people who describe themselves as such. Is that what you are saying; specifically that most progressives believe that abortion should allowed up until the day before birth. And if you are say such, since you are essentially calling all or most of the Democrat candidates "progressives," do you believe they subscribe to such? This goes directly to your notion that conservatives understand liberals.

On the reverse of that coin. Many liberals think anti-abortion conservatives, are "anti" even in cases of rape and incest. Well that's as true as saying progressives are "pro-choice" all the way up to the birth of a fetus. Each side is able to take their opinions of the other to the Nth degree.

I'm not defining progressives as people who describe themselves progressive. I told you I'm making a distinction between moderate left, what I'm labeling "liberals", and progressives. It's a continuous spectrum, but you have to put a line somewhere for where the extreme views start and get more moderate on each side.

Allowing abortion up until birth is not a moderate viewpoint. Not allowing abortions from conception even in the case of rape or incest is also not a moderate viewpoint. So I'm really not sure why you're not clear on my semantics. Maybe you don't like that I called the more extreme left "progressives". It's just a label I assigned so that when I refer to that, you'd know that I mean the people on the left who ARE NOT MODERATE. That has nothing to do with how people would label themselves.

Since you bring up the abortion thing, most Americans take the moderate position. That is, keep it legal until "viable", whatever "viable" means to them. It's only the non-moderate left and non-moderate right who have the all or nothing view.

Does that clear things up about what I mean? Now, what do you think about the rest of it?