The Dunning-Kruger Effect as it relates to firearm training

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  • TFin04

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    (For the Indiana guys, 'CPL' is our concealed permit class. I think you guys call yours something different)

    From Wiki:

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it".[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than in actuality; by contrast the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to a perverse result where less competent people will rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence because competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."

    This phenomena is easily applied to firearm training, gear selection, general advice, etc.

    Some examples I regularly see:

    'My CPL class was great. Instructors were knowledgeable and we learned a lot.'

    Said student has only had exposure to a single CPL class. CPL training is typically the very first step in firearm training and therefore the only exposure to this realm. But since they have nothing to compare their experience to, they are in a poor position to rate how good their class was, how relevant the information was, and how good of a teacher the instructor was.

    'The trainer from XYZ school taught me this technique. It is the best way to solve this problem.'

    I take issue when anybody says anything is THE way. If said student is questioned on the technique, and their reasoning is "Well that's what so-and-so taught me," be very suspect of their ability discuss technique reasoning. Students who have been taught multiple approaches will be able to articulate WHY they like one technique over another. When they are comparing something to something, instead of something to nothing, their word should be listened to and considered, as it is a word of experience, not a regurgitation of what someone else told them.

    'This piece of ABC gear is great! (Be it belts, holsters, guns, sights, optics, etc)

    The very next question should be: "What else have you used to compare it to?"

    If their experience base with that type of product is limited (or only goes as far as the specific item they are recommending), be suspect of their enthusiasm.

    The four levels of Competence

    - Incompetent Incompetence
    "You don't know what you don't know."
    People at this level have simply not had their eyes opened to all the options out there, and have a false sense of knowledge on a specific subject because they don't know what else is out there.
    As it relates to firearms, these are typically your non-CPL holders, or someone just out of their CPL class (depending on how good their CPL class really was...) Or someone who has been taught techniques as THE way to do something, and have not been exposed to other, potentially more efficient, methods to attack the same problem.

    - Competent Incompetence
    "You know how much you don't know."
    The person here has been exposed to something that has broadened their view of the topic, and they now realize how much more is out there that they don't know yet.
    As it relates to firearms, these are typically people in their first training course, or students coming out of a good CPL class. They are typically hungry for more knowledge and eager to learn the other things they now understand they don't know.

    - Competent Competence
    "You know what you know."
    This person knows their objective, has been taught a way to accomplish said objective, and with focus and concentration can complete said task.
    As it relates to firearms, this person understands the core fundamentals of their task, and can complete their task, though maybe not perfectly, and maybe not every time.

    - Incompetent Competence
    "You don't have to think about what you know."
    This person is so well practiced at their task, that it doesn't require thought to complete. It is a standard reaction through practice, or muscle memory. They are much more effective because the brain power used to think about the basic tasks can be allotted to do something else, such as scanning an area, look for other threats, or do a better job at processing information coming at them quickly and make faster and better decisions. They don't have to think about their draw stroke, their sight picture, or their trigger press, they can focus on their threat, the people around them, to shoot or not to shoot, etc.


    These are just observations of my own and what was going through my mind at 11:45 on a Sunday night. It is meant to generate conversation, nothing more.

    Cliffnotes-

    Always consider the source.
    Never stop learning.

    Thoughts?
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    I think you see this in any martial art. The "BJJ Blue Belt" syndrome or whatever you want to call it. The newer you are, the more you want to fight. The older you are, the more you want to cross the street and go home.:D

    I always use the point of light (knowledge/wisdom) in a sea of black (ignorance). The smaller the light the less it is aware that it does not know. The bigger the light the more you realize that there is a sea of stuff that you do not know.
     

    slow1911s

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    I think this assumes that those who label folks with a DKE-tag value training from multiple sources. Further, it also appears to cast a negative light on those who have not, because of time and/or resources, been subject to training from multiple sources. Neither, in and of themselves, are bad.

    What I've seen on this board is people throwing the DKE-tag out when someone does not agree with another's (specifically those who train for a living) opinion on topic. And, it's done with quite a bit of hostility in some cases and I'm not certain as to why? It seems to me that if you have different perspective, offer it for what it is and stop short of labeling those who don't happen to listen or agree.

    The other thing I consider is that people, even after one training session, may have found something that works for them. They understood what was given to them, they can apply it, and it solves their problem or they believe that it does. What seems to be missing (to Tom's point) in their statements of "My halfbakedclaptraptrickoftheday is the best..." is a statement of "...for me/my problem/my budget/my time/my capacity."

    I think it comes down to temperament. Some people (like me) are wired to keep all options open and be on the look out for better alternatives. Others can't function like that. They find something, decide that it works for them, and move on. It may be the DKE if they don't agree with you, but it isn't a handicap.
     

    kingnereli

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    I think this assumes that those who label folks with a DKE-tag value training from multiple sources. Further, it also appears to cast a negative light on those who have not, because of time and/or resources, been subject to training from multiple sources. Neither, in and of themselves, are bad.

    What I've seen on this board is people throwing the DKE-tag out when someone does not agree with another's (specifically those who train for a living) opinion on topic. And, it's done with quite a bit of hostility in some cases and I'm not certain as to why? It seems to me that if you have different perspective, offer it for what it is and stop short of labeling those who don't happen to listen or agree.

    The other thing I consider is that people, even after one training session, may have found something that works for them. They understood what was given to them, they can apply it, and it solves their problem or they believe that it does. What seems to be missing (to Tom's point) in their statements of "My halfbakedclaptraptrickoftheday is the best..." is a statement of "...for me/my problem/my budget/my time/my capacity."

    I think it comes down to temperament. Some people (like me) are wired to keep all options open and be on the look out for better alternatives. Others can't function like that. They find something, decide that it works for them, and move on. It may be the DKE if they don't agree with you, but it isn't a handicap.

    +1

    The OP was informative and interesting. Though the whole time I was thinking that this could be misused to put down or dismiss someone that is less... whatever, then someone else. Especially for a place like INGO where there are vastly different levels of training, exposure to gear options, general firearms experience. It would be a shame for someone to say or think "Well, you're just suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect."

    To the OP,

    I particularly like the point of posing the question "What else have you used to compare it to?" That should at least cause the person questioned to consider his motives for forming the conclusion he did. I recall a thread where someone raved about the training at Front Sight and you asked him where else he had trained to compare the Front Sight training to. IIRC, that had been his only training experience. It was a well placed, to-the-point question that put that persons opinion in perspective.

    Overall, this looks like it could be a very helpful thread. We just need to make sure we are using our powers for good and not for evil.:ingo: This topic has the potential to be misused.
     

    Bubba

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    The main problem with the "DKE tags", or at least the OPs use of examples, is that they assume some universal expert as a reference point. Like Plato's essence of a thing, this super warrior may well not exist, but is used as the basis by which all lesser (wo)men are judged, and therefore downplays the relevance of those who have not mastered all techniques. The DKE ratings assume that all people fall somewhere on the spectrum starting at zero (absolute and complete unfamiliarity) to this imaginary maximum. Further, since this essence of a warrior is nothing but a thought experiment (or instantiated, as Aristotle would say) the standard is highly subjective and differs according to the ideal of the person doing the grading.

    Not to say there is no merit to the system, by any means. The mechanism is certainly borne out in a majority of cases. It's the values system that arises from the mechanism that must be taken with a very large grain of salt, meaning the DKE, similar to other human grouping systems like the MBTI, are fascinating but ultimately useless for decision making.
     

    TFin04

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    Though the whole time I was thinking that this could be misused to put down or dismiss someone that is less...

    Interesting viewpoint, but not at all the intention of my ramblings. These are just a few theory's I have read, found instances where I think they fit, and formed a forum post from them.

    Also interesting are the vastly different responses you get to topics like these based on the group of people reading it. Even among similar personalities (IE, "Gun Guys," the responses can be anywhere on the map. I think that is a good thing).

    Either way, good discussion guys.
     

    cedartop

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    While reading a post in another subforum here, I thought about Dunning Kruger and how much it was in affect. Did a search and found we have covered it some time back. I think maybe a reminder is in order. Yes we have a lot of different experience and education levels here on INGO, but the theory holds that some are always looking to learn and some think they already know it all, or at least enough.

    Tom Givens is fond of saying that the recentness of your last training or practice is more important than the total amount of it. There is some relativity to that of course, if one person has 5 minutes of recent practice it probably won't outweigh someone who has thousands of hours which is slightly more dated. IMHO this goes for experience as well. Most of my experience in violence is old. I can't count on that getting me through as it is too far removed. That is one reason I train and practice, especially against live resisting opponents. If you have never done it for real, or at least pretend, you may not realize that getting your gun or knife out under pressure may not be as easy as all that. Your internet post count notwithstanding.
     

    Jackson

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    If you have never done it for real, or at least pretend, you may not realize that getting your gun or knife out under pressure may not be as easy as all that. Your internet post count notwithstanding.

    That's ridiculous. I think you've forgotten on which corner of the internet you're posting. :-)
     
    Last edited:

    rhino

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    When I see a topic with phrases like "Dunning-Kruger Effect" or "Hick's Law," I have already lost interest in the topic. I'm instituting a policy: heretofore if I have to google the topic title just to have any idea what the topic actually is, I'm just going to post a message stating that the jargon in the title has caused me to lose interest.

    Heh.
     

    cedartop

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    When I see a topic with phrases like "Dunning-Kruger Effect" or "Hick's Law," I have already lost interest in the topic. I'm instituting a policy: heretofore if I have to google the topic title just to have any idea what the topic actually is, I'm just going to post a message stating that the jargon in the title has caused me to lose interest.

    Heh.

    Great. Thanks for contributing to the problem. What if we call it head up your butt know it all syndrome instead? Wait, people would think of me then. Scratch that.
     

    shibumiseeker

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    When I see a topic with phrases like "Dunning-Kruger Effect" or "Hick's Law," I have already lost interest in the topic. I'm instituting a policy: heretofore if I have to google the topic title just to have any idea what the topic actually is, I'm just going to post a message stating that the jargon in the title has caused me to lose interest.

    Heh.


    From now on we can call this the Rhino Corollary.
     

    ViperJock

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    An interesting side note to the Rhino Corollary: many of us have noted that women are easier to reach or seem to learn faster. That may be because men tend to be ignorantly incompetent where as women are cognitively incompetent. It would appear that knowing that you know nothing allows you to know something somewhat sooner. Per se.
     

    ViperJock

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    Here are a few additional thoughts about the OP.
    1. Beginners don't realize how much there is to know so they misjudge the percentage of knowledge that they have gained. For example a new shooter wants information and instruction on how to effectively load, clean, and fire the weapon into a silhouette at 7 yards. We know these things can be effectively taught in a single basic pistol class. The learner accomplished the objectives and has not yet realized how much more there is to using the weapon effectively in a combat situation. Thus over rating the percent of shooting knowledge he has obtained.
    2. On the other hand an experienced shooter realizes that although he can shoot a 1" group at 100 yds, there are those shooting better and faster. Thus accurately assessing his own skill.
    3. Now with regard to the Observer who is left to decide whether or not the shooters are "accurate" in their assessments of their own skill. The observer knows that the new shooter has a long way to go and appropriately labels him as over confident in his abilities. However, the observer is likely to judge the experienced shooter at a level more competent than the shooter himself because a 1" group is pretty darn good, right?
    4. This study was originally done in the business setting I believe. So now you have another issue. Take an incompetent employee and ask him how good he is, do you think he will tell you that he is not very good at his job, uh no. Also ego plays a role. Therefore the motive to answer the question honestly affects the outcome of the study. Basically it calls the entire existence of the ignorantly incompetent. Perhaps many of the people in this category are actually cognitively incompetent and they are simply reluctant to admit it.
     

    The Bubba Effect

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    When I see a topic with phrases like "Dunning-Kruger Effect" or "Hick's Law," I have already lost interest in the topic. I'm instituting a policy: heretofore if I have to google the topic title just to have any idea what the topic actually is, I'm just going to post a message stating that the jargon in the title has caused me to lose interest.

    Heh.

    Move over TLDR, welcome TRC.
     
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