The Open Carry Argument

[SSGSAD]

Just thought I would bump this ..... been 5 days .....

 

[2A_Tom]

If we could get the folks in the first time OC confrontation thread to come over here it would be nice.

 

[eldirector]

If we could get the folks in the first time OC confrontation thread to come over here it would be nice.

.
IF they concealed their contempt as well as they concealed their handgun, it would be a much more meaningful conversation.

 

[Bobby]

If we could get the folks in the first time OC confrontation thread to come over here it would be nice.

I'm here! Although, you probably weren't talking about me since I'm in favor of open carry.

 

[2A_Tom]

Actually I have some data to add that I got from BBI after the Defensive Concepts 1 class.

In Marion County there is an upsurge of OC-ers being targeted by gangs. The surround the victim and disarm them. In one case the victim was on a creeper under a car and when he rolled out, armed thugs robbed him. In another case a workman on a flip house was taken inside at gunpoint and stripped to make sure they got all of his guns.

I OC unless the weather makes me cover. I live in Lake County and have not heard of this.

 

[chipbennett]

Actually I have some data to add that I got from BBI after the Defensive Concepts 1 class.

In Marion County there is an upsurge of OC-ers being targeted by gangs. The surround the victim and disarm them. In one case the victim was on a creeper under a car and when he rolled out, armed thugs robbed him. In another case a workman on a flip house was taken inside at gunpoint and stripped to make sure they got all of his guns.

I OC unless the weather makes me cover. I live in Lake County and have not heard of this.

Two incidents? The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Those sound like situational awareness issues, not OC issues. Guns can be shiny objects, just like a Rolex or Air Jordans. And people alone, such as on a roller underneath a car, or working alone in a house, are easy marks.

 

[2A_Tom]

I think, I am not absolutely sure He said 11 Incidents.

 

[Anima mundi]

@blue falcon, hearing of those accounts from him actually made me start carrying more ammo, to boot. Before I was only carrying a reload in crowded areas, but since the class I've taken that extra magazine even when I'm just going to the corner store. And I might start carrying a second reload as well, before long. I would rather not find myself wanting in the situations described.

 

[airrifle82]

A gun is no different than a rolex. If it's valuable and out in the open someone may try to take it from you.

 

[protias]

A gun is no different than a rolex. If it's valuable and out in the open someone may try to take it from you.

And if you are wearing long sleeves, no one knows you are wearing a rolex, but them might target you for looking like you have something they want.

 

[airrifle82]

I totally agree. I bought my watch to tell me what time it is, not to impress my neighbors. I carry a firearm to protect myself in case i need it to do so. I didn't buy it to keep in sight so people feel intimidated and bad guys are afraid of me.

 

[2A_Tom]

You haven't read the thread , have you?

Why would I read this thread when I know I am right.

 

[airrifle82]

Very entertaining.

 

[hog slayer]

Very entertaining.

BF and I disagree on the OC vs CC argument, however we both seem to agree that you should probably look back thru this thread for any nuggets.

 

[actaeon277]

I totally agree. I bought my watch to tell me what time it is, not to impress my neighbors. I carry a firearm to protect myself in case i need it to do so. I didn't buy it to keep in sight so people feel intimidated and bad guys are afraid of me.

I'm trying to remember the last time someone was intimidated by me.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Actually I have some data to add that I got from BBI after the Defensive Concepts 1 class.

In Marion County there is an upsurge of OC-ers being targeted by gangs. The surround the victim and disarm them. In one case the victim was on a creeper under a car and when he rolled out, armed thugs robbed him. In another case a workman on a flip house was taken inside at gunpoint and stripped to make sure they got all of his guns.

I OC unless the weather makes me cover. I live in Lake County and have not heard of this.

I don't normally follow this thread, but heard I was mentioned.

I did not say there was an "upsurge". It's pretty consistent over the years, and is geographically confined to the east side.

Two incidents? The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Those sound like situational awareness issues, not OC issues. Guns can be shiny objects, just like a Rolex or Air Jordans. And people alone, such as on a roller underneath a car, or working alone in a house, are easy marks.

Yup. And nobody has SA of what's happening on a sidewalk when they are working on something else. Your brain doesn't work like that. You can't concentrate on how much sodium is in this can of peas vs the other can of peas and take more than flash pictures of what's going on. And yes, people get robbed for their shoes. I'm not aware of a lot of Rolex robberies at 42nd/Post, but if you decide to wear one and stop for gas there after dark, let us know what the report number is.

I think, I am not absolutely sure He said 11 Incidents.

7, but since then it's now 8.

The number in and of itself shows only that it happens. Sort of like the fire triangle, you need certain components. An OC person, someone willing to target them, and the opportunity to do so (ie, much less likely to rob you in line at Wal-mart with 25 witnesses vs at a lightly occupied gas station after dark). The analogy I like to use is OC is wearing a pork chop around your neck. You can do it your whole life in a pool and never have a problem. Step into the sea where sharks are swimming and your first time may be a problem. Indy has some shark infested waters, take your pork chop at your own risk.

I'm not reading through 80+ pages of back and forth on the topic, as I simply don't care that much. The cons for me are being targeted for your gun, which does happen, and being unable to disguise your draw if you are confronted. You become subject to ambush, just like uniformed LEOs, and ambushes are the worst situation to fight out of. People know you have a gun, THEY pick when and where the confrontation occurs, and THEY know you are armed. The robberies have either been by overwhelming force (ie 3 guys on 1) or taking the victim from behind. Everyone gets distracted or enthralled in a task and loses SA. Everyone. You also introduce some of the issues of off body carry. You now have to try and access a weapon under direct observation, which tends to get you shot as you can't beat a drawn gun if they are willing to pull the trigger. You lose the ability to disguise the draw, and lose that leg of the stool of speed, surprise, and violence of response that, in my stats at least, has a 100% win rate for one-on-one random violence encounters. For those reasons, I conceal even on duty when it's an option. I've responded to "robbery in progress runs" that I was near by simply parking nearby and then walking into the business like a customer. I can scout out what's going on without being "a cop" and my response can be both more low key and safer. Then if everything looks ok, I can badge the clerk and tell them their alarm went off. It gives me the luxury of waiting that, when in uniform, I did not have. YOU being able to pick when it's go time is a big advantage, particularly if dealing with experienced robbers who expect compliance as they let their guard down pretty quickly after the initial confrontation.

Beyond that, I really don't have much to add and assume this thread will go another 80+ pages. If you have questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm trying to remember the last time someone was intimidated by me.

You scare me.......

 

[chipbennett]

Yup. And nobody has SA of what's happening on a sidewalk when they are working on something else. Your brain doesn't work like that. You can't concentrate on how much sodium is in this can of peas vs the other can of peas and take more than flash pictures of what's going on. And yes, people get robbed for their shoes. I'm not aware of a lot of Rolex robberies at 42nd/Post, but if you decide to wear one and stop for gas there after dark, let us know what the report number is.

Heh. That's one of the reasons that I don't wear a watch at all. I prefer to give off the "nothing to see here, and not worth the effort, even if there were" vibe in unfamiliar locations (i.e. don't flash shiny objects, and don't look like a clueless tourist).

 

[protias]

The number in and of itself shows only that it happens. Sort of like the fire triangle, you need certain components. An OC person, someone willing to target them, and the opportunity to do so (ie, much less likely to rob you in line at Wal-mart with 25 witnesses vs at a lightly occupied gas station after dark). The analogy I like to use is OC is wearing a pork chop around your neck. You can do it your whole life in a pool and never have a problem. Step into the sea where sharks are swimming and your first time may be a problem. Indy has some shark infested waters, take your pork chop at your own risk.

I'm not reading through 80+ pages of back and forth on the topic, as I simply don't care that much. The cons for me are being targeted for your gun, which does happen, and being unable to disguise your draw if you are confronted. You become subject to ambush, just like uniformed LEOs, and ambushes are the worst situation to fight out of. People know you have a gun, THEY pick when and where the confrontation occurs, and THEY know you are armed. The robberies have either been by overwhelming force (ie 3 guys on 1) or taking the victim from behind. Everyone gets distracted or enthralled in a task and loses SA. Everyone. You also introduce some of the issues of off body carry. You now have to try and access a weapon under direct observation, which tends to get you shot as you can't beat a drawn gun if they are willing to pull the trigger. You lose the ability to disguise the draw, and lose that leg of the stool of speed, surprise, and violence of response that, in my stats at least, has a 100% win rate for one-on-one random violence encounters. For those reasons, I conceal even on duty when it's an option. I've responded to "robbery in progress runs" that I was near by simply parking nearby and then walking into the business like a customer. I can scout out what's going on without being "a cop" and my response can be both more low key and safer. Then if everything looks ok, I can badge the clerk and tell them their alarm went off. It gives me the luxury of waiting that, when in uniform, I did not have. YOU being able to pick when it's go time is a big advantage, particularly if dealing with experienced robbers who expect compliance as they let their guard down pretty quickly after the initial confrontation.

Beyond that, I really don't have much to add and assume this thread will go another 80+ pages. If you have questions, feel free to PM me.

Well, you could just read the first post...

 

[rhino]

.
IF they concealed their contempt as well as they concealed their handgun, it would be a much more meaningful conversation.