The Open Carry Argument

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

This is the open carry argument thread. I'm just trying to start an argument. It looked like fun when LS&B did it.

You'll be the first one shot, you know?

 

[SteveM4A1]

I've been shot first so many times I'm afraid of OCing

 

[cce1302]

You have no legal recourse when you're harassed by local cops for legally OCing.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

You have no legal recourse when you're harassed by local cops for legally OCing.

Harassment is the mildest of terms for that BS you went through. St. Joe County: where rights aren't important.

 

[jdmachineman]

Like the article, here are my thoughts and opinions

While I do not carry openly, I do carry concealed. I personally do not like the idea of every person in the immediate area knowing I have a weapon. But it doesn't bother me if someone has an openly displayed weapon on their belt. I am against people parading around with their favorite AR or AK strapped to their backs in the "Second Amendment Pose". I feel that that act alone can turn the tide against us as legal owners faster than any mass shooting. People seeing a revolver or semi auto have very different reactions. While they may feel unease, they are not petrified that they are in immanent danger of becoming a statistic in the next mass shooting of the century.

I do however understand and I must admit agree with the arguments presented in this piece. I think that the deterrent factor is overplayed though. If the bad guys want to take you out they are going to plan a strategy that either is immediately deadly or such a violent encounter that your ability to react quickly with the weapon is extremely limited. Therefore, you lose. While it is true it is usually harder to present your weapon from concealment, if that weapon is not known about beforehand, just the presentation, might be enough to avoid further conflict, but as an aside, the ability to stay in "orange" for extended lengths of time is necessary to have the time to draw!

I personally have never open carried although many times it was obvious even to the casual observer that I was armed, I do believe that the times are changing enough that maybe I should rethink my carry choices and include open carry as an option, but I must also remember that it then limits where I can go legally and that I need to arrange safe and secure storage for the times I must go to the bank or post office!

 

[cce1302]

While I do not carry openly, I do carry concealed. I personally do not like the idea of every person in the immediate area knowing I have a weapon. But it doesn't bother me if someone has an openly displayed weapon on their belt. I am against people parading around with their favorite AR or AK strapped to their backs in the "Second Amendment Pose". I feel that that act alone can turn the tide against us as legal owners faster than any mass shooting. People seeing a revolver or semi auto have very different reactions. While they may feel unease, they are not petrified that they are in immanent danger of becoming a statistic in the next mass shooting of the century.

is it okay if I carry my second or third favorite AK or AR?
Do you have any evidence that people who see a slung rifle (inflammatory language mostly ignored) are petrified that they are in imminent danger of becoming a statistic in the next mass shooting of the century?

I do however understand and I must admit agree with the arguments presented in this piece. I think that the deterrent factor is overplayed though. If the bad guys want to take you out they are going to plan a strategy that either is immediately deadly or such a violent encounter that your ability to react quickly with the weapon is extremely limited. Therefore, you lose. While it is true it is usually harder to present your weapon from concealment, if that weapon is not known about beforehand, just the presentation, might be enough to avoid further conflict, but as an aside, the ability to stay in "orange" for extended lengths of time is necessary to have the time to draw!

Remember, concealed carry is also not any protection from bad guys who want to take you out and plan a strategy that either is immediately deadly or such a violent encounter that your ability to react quickly with the weapon is extremely limited.

I personally have never open carried although many times it was obvious even to the casual observer that I was armed, I do believe that the times are changing enough that maybe I should rethink my carry choices and include open carry as an option, but I must also remember that it then limits where I can go legally and that I need to arrange safe and secure storage for the times I must go to the bank or post office!

How does open carrying limit where you can go legally?

What banks are you going to where it's illegal to open carry?

How is the arrangement for storage any different when you go to a post office--where both open carry and concealed carry is illegal?

 

[chipbennett]

While I do not carry openly, I do carry concealed. I personally do not like the idea of every person in the immediate area knowing I have a weapon. But it doesn't bother me if someone has an openly displayed weapon on their belt. I am against people parading around with their favorite AR or AK strapped to their backs in the "Second Amendment Pose". I feel that that act alone can turn the tide against us as legal owners faster than any mass shooting. People seeing a revolver or semi auto have very different reactions. While they may feel unease, they are not petrified that they are in immanent danger of becoming a statistic in the next mass shooting of the century.

One, how else should a long gun be carried, if not slung over the back? That is the absolute-safest way to carry a long gun.

Two, the fear you describe is utterly irrational, in every conceivable way.

I do however understand and I must admit agree with the arguments presented in this piece. I think that the deterrent factor is overplayed though. If the bad guys want to take you out they are going to plan a strategy that either is immediately deadly or such a violent encounter that your ability to react quickly with the weapon is extremely limited. Therefore, you lose. While it is true it is usually harder to present your weapon from concealment, if that weapon is not known about beforehand, just the presentation, might be enough to avoid further conflict, but as an aside, the ability to stay in "orange" for extended lengths of time is necessary to have the time to draw!

I don't see this as a realistic scenario for most of the dangers the vast majority of us would face - i.e. a common criminal who is looking for an easy mark. Such criminals don't have any desire or skill to plan for the need for violence of action; rather, they'll be far more likely simply to go elsewhere to find an easier victim. There are plenty of data to support the assertion that criminals don't want to deal with armed victims.

 

[Drail]

In my experience open carry is perfect for people who love to interact with the cops. Whatever. I would much rather that NOBODY knows I am carrying. I can see no advantage to showing your hole card. If someone decides to attack me -THEN they get to see my gun.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

In my experience open carry is perfect for people who love to interact with the cops. Whatever. I would much rather that NOBODY knows I am carrying. I can see no advantage to showing your hole card. If someone decides to attack me -THEN they get to see my gun.

Ahhh yes. The oft referred to "element of surprise" comes around again. You see no advantage? How about the deterrent factor? See any advantage there?

So "your experience" leads you to the conclusion that interaction with cops happens frequently enough that OCers love it? Please explain how one who hides their gun like you do has any experience with LEO interaction due to OC.

 

[cce1302]

In my experience open carry is perfect for people who love to interact with the cops. Whatever. I would much rather that NOBODY knows I am carrying. I can see no advantage to showing your hole card. If someone decides to attack me -THEN they get to see my gun.

Exactly what is your experience? Personal? or Youtube?


In my experience, open carry almost never results in interaction with the cops. Whatever.


My experience consists of about 5 years of open carrying and 1 interaction with a few uninformed police officers. If I wanted to interact with cops, I'd be better off calling one.

 

[ATM]

In my experience open carry is perfect for people who love to interact with the cops. Whatever.

As stated, you must not have much experience carrying openly, certainly not recently in Indiana. Instances of open carry causing police interactions are extremely rare these days. What is your source of experience or evidence which caused you to adopt this opinion?

I would much rather that NOBODY knows I am carrying. I can see no advantage to showing your hole card. If someone decides to attack me -THEN they get to see my gun.

I guess I could dig back in this thread a couple years to find one of my previous refutations to the old poker analogy. I will always find it disturbing that people so casually attempt to equate the tactics of a game with their physical defensive strategy. I hope you'll at least pause and consider that they are vastly unrelated topics.

Yes, here's one from 2013:

Open carrying is like playing poker with your cards facing out....Why would you want everyone else to know what you have, where you have it, and how easy it is to get to. I carry to protect myself and my family. Not to bring any unnecessary attention to us.

So they'll fold before they become vested in the pot. I'm not trying to fool them into betting against me like I might if it were just a game.

In life, every time they fold, I win.

In life, I don't actually win anything extra by suckering them in even if I manage to ultimately defeat them.

One of the poorest analogies to bring up if you really think about it, but it certainly crops up a lot.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I forgot, are we supposed to be arguing about whether other people should cc or oc or are we trying to make an argument justifying why we oc or cc? I get all turned around and confused.



If the argument is over how other people should carry, why would I try to tell other people how to dress? I'm not your mom, it's not my place.

 

[ATM]

I forgot, are we supposed to be arguing about whether other people should cc or oc or are we trying to make an argument justifying why we oc or cc? I get all turned around and confused.

I've tried my best to stay true to the intent of the original post and just argue reasoning as presented (or lacking) for the most part:

...Conclusion
No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used...

If the argument is over how other people should carry, why would I try to tell other people how to dress? I'm not your mom, it's not my place.

Of course not. Very few actually crop up here any more thinking it's their place to do so.

And so we wait...

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

 

[steveh_131]

Listen I didn't read the thread or anything I just wanted to let you all know that open carrying is stupid, just think about it, why would you want the bad guy to know you have a sweet biscuit??? so he can take it right out of your nylon holster and shoot your baby with it???/?

plus it's illegal guys it's called a CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT for a REASON. you can't just walk around like john waynes

 

[SteveM4A1]

Listen I didn't read the thread or anything I just wanted to let you all know that open carrying is stupid, just think about it, why would you want the bad guy to know you have a sweet biscuit??? so he can take it right out of your nylon holster and shoot your baby with it???/?

plus it's illegal guys it's called a CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT for a REASON. you can't just walk around like john waynes

I open carried into a bar last week and my FIL stated that. He told me someone was going to walk up right behind me and take it, then shoot me. I then asked him if this is something that happens often, and asked him to give me a few examples. He got quiet.

 

[steveh_131]

The guy at the gun shop says it happens ALL the time. I trust him, he sold me the banned green tip ammo. triple the price, but still

 

[rhino]

The next time I have lunch with ATM I'm going to try to take his gun away from him.

I'll wear a mouthpiece and a cup, of course.

 

[singlesix]

They are going to ban open carry when they do away with the lifetime license this year.

 

[steveh_131]

The next time I have lunch with ATM I'm going to try to take his gun away from him.

we should go to bars and do this to open carriers regularly, to prove a point. great idea, right?