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  • rob63

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    Thank you, gentlemen, for the cordial responses. Last week, when I mentioned the War was about more than just slavery (as in States' Rights), I was slightly skewered by a couple of the resident 'scholars'.

    As regards Lincoln's view on slavery, I've heard him quoted as saying: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that...."

    I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it shows a greater desire to save the union than free the slaves.

    p.s.: and before anybody comes along to skewer me again, I well know that Lincoln was against slavery. I found the following page to be of interest, concerning Lincoln's quoted viewpoints:

    Slavery Quotations by Abraham Lincoln


    The very first quoted item, after the intro, I found particularly interesting, although allegedly written in 1852.

    .

    Secession was about slavery, period. No other issues, not states rights, not tariffs. The Southern states seceded in order to preserve the institution of slavery. They said so themselves, no point in continuing to argue about it.

    The war, however, was about preserving the union, at least at first, until it was also about slavery as well. I don't have strong opinions about how Lincoln should have handled the problem. I think he said it best himself. He was congratulated in a letter for how well he controlled events, he responded by saying that he always felt that events controlled him.

    One can also argue that absent secession, there would have been no need to preserve the union. Thus, the war was really about whatever caused secession regardless of what Lincoln said his war aims were, and consequently the war was about slavery anyway.

    I have no issue with the people who chose to side with their state, regardless of how poor the cause. I can't say I would have done differently, who really knows?

    If anyone has questions regarding what secession was about, then you should read what the seceding states declared were their reasons. They were very clear about it:
    https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
     
    Last edited:

    NKBJ

    at the ark
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    Slavery was made the defining issue by intentional political manipulations. So, when the agricultural states left the Union and formed their own republic it had been made the rallying point they could agree upon. It always was an issue from the time of the charter drawn up between the thirteen colonies who declared themselves to be sovereign states. And was there to be used, a part of the political mix of problems that were promulgated not only to line pockets within the northeastern establishment but to create the near fatal division of the United States. Meanwhile of course the powerful families in the agricultural states were having their profits reduced by the thievery of the northeast and weren't about to give up the slave (now politely called "sweat shop") labor system they profited by. It was all a question of morally corrupt people in contests over centers of wealth. But note, the issue in 1828 was the financial rape of the agricultural states and it was reworked, redefined, by the political machinery of the day into being a moral issue with the victims of rape being at fault. Aint politics just plumb awesome?

    Now, if people were to study how and why political issues are created and apply that knowledge to the 1820's through to that splintering of the Union then they could learn how it was done and then see why it was done. Instead, the common day practice is one of harping on slavery and that the war was a noble campaign waged for the purpose of freeing the slaves, which it wasn't except for the purposes of propaganda.

    It's sad that people in the present day can understand how current politics are being manipulated but are blind when it comes to their cherished lopsided myths from yesteryear. It has poisoned the waters of today.
     

    rob63

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    Slavery was made the defining issue by intentional political manipulations. So, when the agricultural states left the Union and formed their own republic it had been made the rallying point they could agree upon. It always was an issue from the time of the charter drawn up between the thirteen colonies who declared themselves to be sovereign states. And was there to be used, a part of the political mix of problems that were promulgated not only to line pockets within the northeastern establishment but to create the near fatal division of the United States. Meanwhile of course the powerful families in the agricultural states were having their profits reduced by the thievery of the northeast and weren't about to give up the slave (now politely called "sweat shop") labor system they profited by. It was all a question of morally corrupt people in contests over centers of wealth. But note, the issue in 1828 was the financial rape of the agricultural states and it was reworked, redefined, by the political machinery of the day into being a moral issue with the victims of rape being at fault. Aint politics just plumb awesome?

    Now, if people were to study how and why political issues are created and apply that knowledge to the 1820's through to that splintering of the Union then they could learn how it was done and then see why it was done. Instead, the common day practice is one of harping on slavery and that the war was a noble campaign waged for the purpose of freeing the slaves, which it wasn't except for the purposes of propaganda.

    It's sad that people in the present day can understand how current politics are being manipulated but are blind when it comes to their cherished lopsided myths from yesteryear. It has poisoned the waters of today.

    Well, we do agree on one thing anyway. Here's the guy that started the Lost Cause Myth:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubal_Early

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

    Though the idea has more than one origin, proponents of the Lost Cause argue in the main that slavery was not the primary cause of the Civil War.In order to reach this conclusion, they directly ignore the declarations of secession by the seceding states, the declarations of congressmen who left Congress to join the Confederacy, and the treatment of slavery in the Confederate Constitution. They also deny or minimize the wartime writings and speeches of Confederate leaders in favor of their postwar views. (See Cornerstone Speech.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech
     

    NKBJ

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    Well, we do agree on one thing anyway. Here's the guy that started the Lost Cause Myth:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubal_Early

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

    Though the idea has more than one origin, proponents of the Lost Cause argue in the main that slavery was not the primary cause of the Civil War.In order to reach this conclusion, they directly ignore the declarations of secession by the seceding states, the declarations of congressmen who left Congress to join the Confederacy, and the treatment of slavery in the Confederate Constitution. They also deny or minimize the wartime writings and speeches of Confederate leaders in favor of their postwar views. (See Cornerstone Speech.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

    You're proving me correct.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
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    They're too stupid to realize that if it weren't for Jefferson and his compatriots, they wouldn't have the freedom to do this bull****. I hope they're prosecuted for vandalism.

    What the f... oh, it's Portland. :coffee:

    These kids are clueless with no understanding of history. They have absolutely ZERO clue who any of these statues are, and assume that ALL monuments (and historical figures) are evil and must be toppled.

    Just look at the S&S monument in the circle. Dedicated to those that are on their side of the cause, but they have no clue and defaced it anyway. They might as well destroy the MLK/ RFK sculpture as well. It would make as much sense as these.
     

    JettaKnight

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    These kids are clueless with no understanding of history. They have absolutely ZERO clue who any of these statues are, and assume that ALL monuments (and historical figures) are evil and must be toppled.

    Just look at the S&S monument in the circle. Dedicated to those that are on their side of the cause, but they have no clue and defaced it anyway. They might as well destroy the MLK/ RFK sculpture as well. It would make as much sense as these.

    History's just a bunch of white old men, you fascist!
     

    ghuns

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    What is it with extremist ideology and the destruction of statues?

    0226-isis-statues-destroy_1.jpg


    20101120__20101121_A24_ND21BUDDHASp1.jpg


    k1rkx1nurvx31.jpg
     

    NKBJ

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    Heh, still wondering how long it'll take before the insufficiently revolutionary are executed.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Heh, still wondering how long it'll take before the insufficiently revolutionary are executed.


    They have already tried to get that ball rolling with "Silence is violence". You are either vocally for them and carrying the flag, or totally against them. There is no in between with these freaks.
     

    Tombs

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    Okay, now they're not even discriminating anymore. The confederate statues you could kinda see (not me personally), but now they're just tearing down statues at random. Time to start jailing these people.

    They already took down George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues.

    Our history is being erased, and politicians are either embracing it or sitting silent.
     

    KellyinAvon

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    Tombs

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    When would the war have ended if the Union Army had been commanded by someone other than US Grant?

    My Mom (who doesn't usually talk about politics) said we need Civil War statues because the Civil War was so horrible, and we can never forget that.

    And that's precisely why I keep trying to tell people, we're already well into the second civil war.
    Warfare has changed and is much more complicated than simply facing the enemy and pulling triggers.
     

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