The Sad Radicals- atheists with a deep, abiding faith in their own oppression

[indiucky]

Still no mention of Jesus. So...we are Jewish?

I think the teachings of Christ, that we are all equal in eyes of God, played a role in our founding...I am kind of nerdy on 18th century history and the theme is there.....

I often times think that the protestant reformation also heavily influenced our founding...Especially among the Scot Irish that immigrated here...The "rule from the bottom up" way of the congregation rather than the Anglican rule from the "top down" I.E. The monarchy is the head of the Church of England....

 

[Expat]

I often times think that the protestant reformation also heavily influenced our founding...Especially among the Scot Irish that immigrated here...The "rule from the bottom up" way of the congregation rather than the Anglican rule from the "top down" I.E. The monarchy is the head of the Church of England....

But not really congregationalism as in some churches, which is sort of democratic. More like Presbyterian structure of the congregations electing elders who then attend a Presbytery level and then they elect representatives at the next level of government.

 

[indiucky]

But not really congregationalism as in some churches, which is sort of democratic. More like Presbyterian structure of the congregations electing elders who then attend a Presbytery level and then they elect representatives at the next level of government.

As usual expat says better what I was trying to say...Thank you!!!!

he's my translator...

 

[Expat]

As usual expat says better what I was trying to say...Thank you!!!!

he's my translator...

I only know about it since we are Presbyterians and my have some of that crazy Scots-Irish blood in me.

 

[Route 45]

As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book. The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles, which is a parody on the sun and the twelve signs of the zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the eastern world, is the least hurtful part. - Thomas Paine

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” - James Madison

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. - Benjamin Franklin


Doesn't particularly sound like a bunch of guys who thought they were founding a nation based on a religion.

 

[KG1]

As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book. The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles, which is a parody on the sun and the twelve signs of the zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the eastern world, is the least hurtful part. - Thomas Paine

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” - James Madison

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. - Benjamin Franklin


Doesn't particularly sound like a bunch of guys who thought they were founding a nation based on a religion.

Anyone can cherry pick quotes to suit their needs. I can do it too. In the case of Jefferson I could pick out a quote that suggests that he felt [FONT=&amp]Christianity would be the best religion in a republic.

[T]he Christian religion when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have inveloped it, and brought to the original purity & simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, & the freest expression of the human mind,”.

[/FONT]

Quote was taken from an interesting read about Jefferson and his religious beliefs. Worth a read. Jefferson was a theist. Not an atheist. He had a difference of opinion on what religion should be.

https://www.monticello.org/site/res...ffersons-religious-beliefs#footnote12_igw0p7n

12 He explained it was a “benign religion … inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude and love of man, acknowledging and adoring an overruling providence.”13 Based on these understandings, Jefferson demonstrated a deep, even devout, admiration of Jesus, “the purity & sublimity of his moral precepts, the eloquence of his inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which he conveys them...”14 At times, Jefferson described these moral and ethical teachings of Jesus as “primitive christianity” before its perversion by church leaders seeking temporal power.15[

 

[Mongo59]

Fortunate for me, I don't have a "religion", I have a relationship. The only time I seem to get myself into trouble is when I start thinking of myself as the senior partner.

The Bible is not a press release from some spin doctor. If it were it would ALL be some pie in the sky "don't you want to be like me" crap that those who do think of themselves as the senior partner twisted it into as to fulfill they own desires.

It is simple to read, easy to understand and yet the most difficult thing to not only do, but to do well and do always.

Why? Because everywhere I go... there I am! A flawed human with the same problems as everyone else when we try to "go it alone".

When it feels like life is pulling us under, it isn't that we have a shorter swim back to the life raft, it is that we know the life raft when we see it...

 

[indiucky]

As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book. The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles, which is a parody on the sun and the twelve signs of the zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the eastern world, is the least hurtful part. - Thomas Paine

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” - James Madison

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. - Benjamin Franklin


Doesn't particularly sound like a bunch of guys who thought they were founding a nation based on a religion.

It does to me....What am I missing?

Thomas Paine was an Atheist yet speaks admiringly of the historical Jesus in that commentary (complete commentary, not that section...)...I think it's funny that Thomas Paine does the Zodiac theory....Even the latest Zeitgeist and newly minted freshman Atheist's have laid that dog to rest...That's funny....I guess there is no way he would know that New Testament Scholars (like Bart Erhlman, an Agnostic, borderline Atheist) would get a kick out of that....LOL...I have the Letters of Ben Franklin that quote is taken from and he was answering a question from a lady about the divinity of Christ..He admits he never studied it and hesitates to do so so late in life as he will know the answer soon enough......I agree with Madison wholeheartedly concerning "religious bondage shackles" but religious bondage is something I know that no Christian I am aware of supports....

Judeo Christian teachings and writings helped shape our nation....One does not have to believe to recognize that truth....One could say that truth is "self evident"...It's okay to be an Atheist and try to show that all of the cool people were also Atheist's but it doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny..I say this as someone who came to Christ late in life and twenty years ago would've been closer to your camp...But even then, due to my love of 18th century history, would never deny the impact Judeo Christian beliefs had in the history of the west, including the new world, 250 years ago.....Christopher Hitchens argued that the King James version of the Bible should be MANDATORY teaching for grades 6th though 12th so when you get to university and study literature, political science and art that you would at least know where the western landscape's roots are...

That Christopher Hitchens......Who wrote a glowing defense of the King james bible for Vanity Fair.....

One of them, the so-called Geneva Bible, was a more Calvinist and Puritan English version than the book that King James commissioned, and was the edition which the Pilgrim Fathers, fleeing the cultural and religious war altogether, took with them to Plymouth Rock. Thus Governor Ma Ferguson was right in one respect: America was the first and only Christian society that could take an English Bible for granted, and never had to struggle for a popular translation of “the good book.”

Christopher Hitchens

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2011/05/hitchens-201105

And here is an example of taking some quotes to make your case...Notice the smugness and the photos of the "right wing zealots" he uses to try to make his case...What's funny is that I am a believer and I agree with these quotes below (with the exception of Thomas Paine, who apparently was the Lawrence Krauss of his day, total fail on so many levels it would be laughable to a Bart Erhlman or Sam Harris. There is a reason he (Krauss) is not one of "the four horsemen" lol...)

If you study what was believed 2000 years ago it's very easy to see how Judeo Christian beliefs shaped the west...The power of the individual....Christ famously said, "Everyone, everyone, Jew and Gentile alike have a seat at my Father's table.." Until you understand how religion was back then you will have no idea what a profound effect that simple statement had on the shaping of the west and western civilization...God's grace was available to all...Not just the few...All men were equal in the eye of God....That was radical at the time...Very radical.....

 

[indiucky]

I only know about it since we are Presbyterians and my have some of that crazy Scots-Irish blood in me.

I was trying to articulate what Jim Webb said about the "Kirk" being chosen from the ground up....His book on the Scots Irish is excellent...My ancestry dna came back on I am 100 percent British Isles located mostly in Scotland, Northern England and Northern Ireland and Wales..In 1775 you see us head to Kentuck by their tracking of DNA...Western Kentucky rather than the mountains....

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I was trying to articulate what Jim Webb said about the "Kirk" being chosen from the ground up....His book on the Scots Irish is excellent...My ancestry dna came back on I am 100 percent British Isles located mostly in Scotland, Northern England and Northern Ireland and Wales..In 1775 you see us head to Kentuck by their tracking of DNA...Western Kentucky rather than the mountains....

Our ancestors may have well been acquainted. If I've tracked my tree accurately, I had ancestors in the Louisville area as early as the early-mid 1700's

 

[indiucky]

Our ancestors may have well been acquainted. If I've tracked my tree accurately, I had ancestors in the Louisville area as early as the early-mid 1700's

That could explain our dashing good looks and razor sharp wit?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That could explain our dashing good looks and razor sharp wit?

Huh...I never made that particular connection before...I think you might have a point there.

 

[KG1]

That could explain our dashing good looks and razor sharp wit?

Huh...I never made that particular connection before...I think you might have a point there.

Then again it could’ve skipped a generation when it got to you guys.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Then again it could’ve skipped a generation when it got to you guys.

That kind of stings, a little bit...

 

[Leadeye]

Today, big media is religion, performing all the functions and committing all the abuses it did in 12th century europe.

 

[indiucky]

Then again it could’ve skipped a generation when it got to you guys.

 

[indiucky]

That kind of stings, a little bit...