This is what the Anti-gun people are afraid of

[JettaKnight]

If it's unsafe for that person to have their firearms, they shouldn't be out roaming the streets while they await trial. The Red Flag law is simply the wrong solution to that problem and not even a very good one. Plenty of ways for said person to harm people without their firearms. Either they are a threat or they aren't.

You're right - the subject at hand wasn't simply "red flagged", he was arrested.


Red flag laws are used when someone is suicidal (which is the majority of gun related deaths, IIRC). AFAIK, severe depression is not a crime.


But again, red flag laws were not employed here. None of the articles mention that at all, so I have no idea why HappyGunner inserted that into the narrative (fake news?), and he hasn't come back to this thread to explain his somewhat cryptic post.

 

[JettaKnight]

There was a SWAT hoax in Greenfield two days ago. Closed streets and everything.

Police: Report of shooting was ?swatting? hoax

OK, was a judge involved? Was Jake Laird's Law being used? Or was this call the police tell them some lies? Because the latter has nothing to do with any red flag laws. The fact that "swatting" precedes red flag laws and goes on in places without red flag laws in evidence to that.

Let's not conflate the two.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Police: Report of shooting was ?swatting? hoax

OK, was a judge involved? Was Jake Laird's Law being used? Or was this call the police tell them some lies? Because the latter has nothing to do with any red flag laws. The fact that "swatting" precedes red flag laws and goes on in places without red flag laws in evidence to that.

Let's not conflate the two.

Both can be used to harm innocent and unsuspecting citizens. No matter how the SWAT team arrives at the wrong house, it's wrong.

 

[bwframe]

What kind of mental health or legal professionals are sent to investigate potential suicide or depression in a "scary" gun owner?

It's a 911 dispatcher and the same officer who writes your speeding ticket or theft report, correct?

 

[drillsgt]

There was a SWAT hoax in Greenfield two days ago. Closed streets and everything.

That was an interesting night, kudos to Greenfield though for doing everything right, they set up a perimeter and then just called the occupants to start to figure it out as opposed to what happened in that last fatal swatting. If one of the photos I saw was not just a stock image then apparently GPD or the Sheriffs department has an armored vehicle, never knew we had one lol, hopefully it was one of those "free" ones and i'm not paying for that.

 

[JettaKnight]

What kind of mental health or legal professionals are sent to investigate potential suicide or depression in a "scary" gun owner?

It's a 911 dispatcher and the same officer who writes your speeding ticket or theft report, correct?

That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one. Plus, I do believe INGO LEO's familiar with the process have explained it to you in other threads.

 

[bwframe]

Did the Greenfield folks that were swatted come out of the property armed?

 

[JettaKnight]

Did the Greenfield folks that were swatted come out of the property armed?

From what it sounds like, it was called off before contact was made, while they were evacuating nearby residents.

 

[drillsgt]

Did the Greenfield folks that were swatted come out of the property armed?

Is that illegal?

 

[Tanfodude]

Ok, to clarify my post. This is an example of the ignorance from the anti-gun and the idiot gunowner. If a neighbor see me dry firing, do I get red flagged? The idiot gunowner also shouldn't have shared that video as using real people as practice target will escalate things.

It is just a cautionary post as we are surrounded by ignorance and dumbassess. But yeah, the actions of this guy, is what antigun people fear, dry firing 'assualt weapons'.

Isn't this a form of red flag as there was no initial due process? If it smells and looka like a red flag, it's a red flag.

 

[JettaKnight]

Ok, to clarify my post. This is an example of the ignorance from the anti-gun and the idiot gunowner. If a neighbor see me dry firing, do I get red flagged? The idiot gunowner also shouldn't have shared that video as using real people as practice target will escalate things.

It is just a cautionary post as we are surrounded by ignorance and dumbassess. But yeah, the actions of this guy, is what antigun people fear, dry firing 'assualt weapons'.

Isn't this a form of red flag as there was no initial due process? If it smells and looka like a red flag, it's a red flag.

I'm not sure what sort of "initial due process" you want. If there's an actual threat, (which there appears to be), shouldn't that be sufficient? If someone is committing a crime, don't you arrest them right then and there?

Furthermore, there are what appear to be court documents displayed in one video... doesn't that indicate that there was some form of due process?


And if the person is arrested, then that's not a red flag - that is when the guns go to jail, and not the person.

 

[Tanfodude]

I'm not sure what sort of "initial due process" you want. If there's an actual threat, (which there appears to be), shouldn't that be sufficient? If someone is committing a crime, don't you arrest them right then and there?

Furthermore, there are what appear to be court documents displayed in one video... doesn't that indicate that there was some form of due process?


And if the person is arrested, then that's not a red flag - that is when the guns go to jail, and not the person.

Are we talking about this particular case or just in general? If for this case, was he really a threat or just being a dumbass. I'm actually glad if this stopped a potential mass shooting.

If I'm dry firing at home, I keep windows open for natural light, a neighbor sees me doing it, calls cops for a potential mass shooting practice as they're told "if you see something, say something" . How do you think that would go down?

 

[Sigblitz]

IANAL. If he was intentionally pointing a firearm at people, what a d***a**. And pulling the trigger? I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[sheepdog697]

What an idiot...

 

[JettaKnight]

Are we talking about this particular case or just in general? If for this case, was he really a threat or just being a dumbass. I'm actually glad if this stopped a potential mass shooting.

I don't typically speak to generalities - too many "what if's" and "yeah, but's". Especially on this topic - it always devolves into "What if my brother-in-law just doesn't like me and reports me." There's a whole lot of misunderstanding and straw man arguments on the topic. There's a few high profile cases in other states where it appears that a guy was wronged, and several cases where we, the internet pontificators, don't know all the facts. Yet the majority of the cases presented on INGO are all hypothetical - like yours below.

If I'm dry firing at home, I keep windows open for natural light, a neighbor sees me doing it, calls cops for a potential mass shooting practice as they're told "if you see something, say something" . How do you think that would go down?

Then close your windows, use your basement, or prepare to do some 'splainin. You could always paint your gun to look like a Nerf gun.


The difference between the real world case and the one you've created, is that the guy in question had a complete backstory (with evidence) showing derangement. My neighbors might see me clearing my house with my AK, but there's no evidence to show that I have any intent to do harm.



I totally understand the gravity of the situation - any tool (i.e. a ;aw) that can be used to stop psychos can be misused to hurt the righteous. I just really want to see some studies done on this showing if red flags are helpful or harmful to the public and law-abiding gun owners. Otherwise, we're in a situation where we're sensationalizing the few rare cases and creating fear based on hypothetical situations and ignoring the positive benefits (e.g. reduced suicide). That's the same thing the anti's do - focus on rare mass shootings, and ignore all the positive aspects of sporting rifles.

 

[Tanfodude]

It's only hypothetical until it happens (swatting has happened, it might have been hypothetical until someone made it happen).

 

[JettaKnight]

It's only hypothetical until it happens (swatting has happened, it might have been hypothetical until someone made it happen).

Swatting != red flags


Swattings happened before red flag laws existed.

And in those cases the normal outcome is the swatter gets arrested, and hopefully the swatted doesn't die.


Swatting is done with malicious intent. The scenario you described (sees homeowner going tactical through windows) is done good intent. (may be stupid, but their heart is in the right place)

 

[Tanfodude]

Swatting != red flags


Swattings happened before red flag laws existed.

And in those cases the normal outcome is the swatter gets arrested, and hopefully the swatted doesn't die.


Swatting is done with malicious intent. The scenario you described (sees homeowner going tactical through windows) is done good intent. (may be stupid, but their heart is in the right place)

Who do you think makes those calls? Again the point here is people who are uninformed about firearms or antigun in nature instigating both when they see something. That is the point.

 

[JettaKnight]

Who do you think makes those calls?

Well, in a lot of high profile cases it's someone nowhere near, and pissed-off that they lost in a video game.

Again the point here is people who are uninformed about firearms or antigun in nature instigating both when they see something. That is the point.

And those people aren't often doing it maliciously. They have a genuine, but misguided, intention. Or, it may be a very real, and correct intention, like the situation here in real life.

Hence, Swatting != red flags

 

[Tanfodude]

And your point is? Disregard the small chance of it happening based on high profile cases?

Often = still happens.

Unless you're saying this is unlikely.

Or are you going for what the definition between swatting or red flagging. Regardless of their actual definition, the act are still involves LEO in potential violating your rights and ruining your financial situation.