Thoughts on private gun sales

[Ingomike]

It seems pretty simple, if one is uncomfortable with the state regulations for private sales, then consignment is the best option.

 

[Destro]

I don't know what you are trying to get from me, you made the statement.

I am just trying to get you to view your actions from a different lens, specifically that you might not be following the actual law, and how your actions could be interpreted. Not saying they are right or wrong.

I specifically said "laws and procedures" and you are ignoring the procedures part



Your literally inventing a procedure for firearms your sales. Will Bryan Ciyou come to court and testify on your behalf about his book? Citing that as a source in court for your actions will for sure be challenged as inadmissible hearsay.

If the firearm ended up being used in some high profile crime your bill of sale can easily be a clear link to you for the crime. When they search your house and come up with multiple records where you sold firearms, those will be introduced as evidence of your business activity.

 

[Ingomike]

I am just trying to get you to view your actions from a different lens, specifically that you might not be following the actual law, and how your actions could be interpreted. Not saying they are right or wrong.

I specifically said "laws and procedures" and you are ignoring the procedures part

View attachment 222970

Your literally inventing a procedure for firearms your sales. Will Bryan Ciyou come to court and testify on your behalf about his book? Citing that as a source in court for your actions will for sure be challenged as inadmissible hearsay.

If the firearm ended up being used in some high profile crime your bill of sale can easily be a clear link to you for the crime. When they search your house and come up with multiple records where you sold firearms, those will be introduced as evidence of your business activity.

It is too bad these great points are not in first page of posts…

 

[Route 45]

Same here. In my case my understanding is they moved on because I supplied concrete evidence that I'm not the last person who was in possession of the firearm, at least that's my take on it.

It's the ATF. They are tracing the firearm, they are not investigating the local violent crime. They don't care about who was in possession of the firearm with regards to whatever violent crime was committed. They are investigating whether you are in the business of selling firearms without an FFL. A bill of sale does not disprove that. In fact, it is concrete proof that you may indeed be in the business, since you are keeping records.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

If the firearm ended up being used in some high profile crime your bill of sale can easily be a clear link to you for the crime. When they search your house and come up with multiple records where you sold firearms, those will be introduced as evidence of your business activity.

You’re skipping some steps here. Just because your name appears on a firearm trace, that doesn’t automatically give law enforcement probable cause for a search warrant.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

It's the ATF. They are tracing the firearm, they are not investigating the local violent crime. They don't care about who was in possession of the firearm with regards to whatever violent crime was committed. They are investigating whether you are in the business of selling firearms without an FFL. A bill of sale does not disprove that. In fact, it is concrete proof that you may indeed be in the business, since you are keeping records.

ATF DOES investigate violent crime. Many of their cases target felons in possession of firearms.

 

[Ingomike]

ATF DOES investigate violent crime. Many of their cases target felons in possession of firearms.

I don’t think that is what that means.

An investigation for prohibited persons possessing a firearm because they committed a murder is not the murder investigation itself…

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

I don’t think that is what that means.

An investigation for prohibited persons possessing a firearm because they committed a murder is not the murder investigation itself…

Correct, although they frequently team up with local law enforcement in those cases.

I’m just saying that if the ATF knocks on your door over a firearm trace, it could very well be because of a felon in possession of a firearm case. Not just because they’re looking at you for selling firearms without a FFL, as Route 45 suggested.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

My two cents, I’ve always asked to see a concealed carry license and then filled out a bill of sale for my own records. If you don’t want to do that, don’t. Just follow the law and you’ll be fine.

 

[Route 45]

Correct, although they frequently team up with local law enforcement in those cases.

I’m just saying that if the ATF knocks on your door over a firearm trace, it could very well be because of a felon in possession of a firearm case. Not just because they’re looking at you for selling firearms without a FFL, as Route 45 suggested.

It’s vastly more likely that it’s an investigation into the sale of the firearm, whether it’s doing business without an FFL or straw purchasing for prohibited persons. Felon in possession is also against state law, and is usually investigated by local law enforcement. Not something that the ATF is solely focused on.

The ATF does not directly investigate violent crimes. They may be a part of a joint task force, or be loosely working with local LE on a specific case, but the responsibility for enforcing laws regarding violent crime generally falls to local LE and, in cases with federal jurisdiction involved, other federal agencies.

 

[Ingomike]

Correct, although they frequently team up with local law enforcement in those cases.

I’m just saying that if the ATF knocks on your door over a firearm trace, it could very well be because of a felon in possession of a firearm case. Not just because they’re looking at you for selling firearms without a FFL, as Route 45 suggested.

And I believe he was adding to, not limiting it, by stating that the act of keeping records creates the impression you are a business not an individual that could come up when they are investigating a gun from a crime. It seems plausible that an individual that has procedures above and beyond required, and is proud of them would pull a big file with all the records of all the guns sold, to prove they sold one in question. Then the alphabet boys say let us see that. LOL

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

It’s vastly more likely that it’s an investigation into the sale of the firearm, whether it’s doing business without an FFL or straw purchasing for prohibited persons. Felon in possession is also against state law, and is usually investigated by local law enforcement. Not something that the ATF is solely focused on.

The ATF does not directly investigate violent crimes. They may be a part of a joint task force, or be loosely working with local LE on a specific case, but the responsibility for enforcing laws regarding violent crime generally falls to local LE and, in cases with federal jurisdiction involved, other federal agencies.

No, they definitely investigate plenty of federal felon in possession cases, especially these days when state/local prosecutors refuse to charge anyone so the feds often adopt the cases.

They may not directly investigate violent crime by responding to a crime scene if there’s a shooting (although they certainly have in some instances, especially if law enforcement is involved), but they operate and fund ballistic labs/testing for violent crimes.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

And I believe he was adding to, not limiting it, by stating that the act of keeping records creates the impression you are a business not an individual that could come up when they are investigating a gun from a crime. It seems plausible that an individual that has procedures above and beyond required, and is proud of them would pull a big file with all the records of all the guns sold, to prove they sold one in question. Then the alphabet boys say let us see that. LOL

That’s the fault of the person with the records, the records themselves aren’t the problem. My records are MINE, the federal government doesn’t know they exist unless I divulge that info to them. If they want to see these records, they can apply for a search warrant.

 

[Ingomike]

That’s the fault of the person with the records, the records themselves aren’t the problem. My records are MINE, the federal government doesn’t know they exist unless I divulge that info to them. If they want to see these records, they can apply for a search warrant.

And if you reply to this post you will have your 50 posts in a day. Pretty good work there…

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

And if you reply to this post you will have your 50 posts in a day. Pretty good work there…

Thanks, didn’t even notice until you said something! Guess I’ve been bored at work…

 

[Destro]

You’re skipping some steps here. Just because your name appears on a firearm trace, that doesn’t automatically give law enforcement probable cause for a search warrant.

Showing a bill of sale that positively affirms you sold the gun used in a crime can absolutely.

How did you meet the suspect to sell the gun? Met him on the internet? Now include in that warrant request electronic devices that could have been used to facilitate the sale, subpoenas/warrants for cell phone data, emails, subscriber data, etc...

And most of this conversation has centered around the criminal aspect, nobody has really mentioned the civil aspect. Bar is much lower in civil court to seek damages.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

So if you miss something, by the fact that you unilaterally decided that the state’s requirements are inadequate, are you liable?

So it's much better to sell the firearm to a total stranger you've never met before, don't check anything, no ID or LTCH or nothing, not even a peek, just that he/she had the requisite number of benjamins and didn't flat out tell you was a felon?

It seems pretty simple, if one is uncomfortable with the state regulations for private sales, then consignment is the best option.

Only sell to complete strangers that you know nothing about? That sounds like you're saying that's what the state/federal regulations mean.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Showing a bill of sale that positively affirms you sold the gun used in a crime can absolutely.

How did you meet the suspect to sell the gun? Met him on the internet? Now include in that warrant request electronic devices that could have been used to facilitate the sale, subpoenas/warrants for cell phone data, emails, subscriber data, etc...

And most of this conversation has centered around the criminal aspect, nobody has really mentioned the civil aspect. Bar is much lower in civil court to seek damages.

If they're at your door about a specific serial number firearm, doesn't that mean the paper trail already led to you?

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

Showing a bill of sale that positively affirms you sold the gun used in a crime can absolutely.

How did you meet the suspect to sell the gun? Met him on the internet? Now include in that warrant request electronic devices that could have been used to facilitate the sale, subpoenas/warrants for cell phone data, emails, subscriber data, etc...

And most of this conversation has centered around the criminal aspect, nobody has really mentioned the civil aspect. Bar is much lower in civil court to seek damages.

You’re overthinking a tad. Did you knowingly sell a firearm to a felon? Did you take reasonable steps to ensure the buyer is not a felon? All you have to do is follow those steps, anything else is just extra. Having a bill of sale does not increase the likelihood of ATF executing a search warrant at your house…. It’s a personal document that they don’t even know exists unless you divulge that info.

 

[Expat]

You’re overthinking a tad. Did you knowingly sell a firearm to a felon? Did you take reasonable steps to ensure the buyer is not a felon? All you have to do is follow those steps, anything else is just extra. Having a bill of sale does not increase the likelihood of ATF executing a search warrant at your house…. It’s a personal document that they don’t even know exists unless you divulge that info.

I always assume that when I state it on the internet, they know about it.