Three or four die sets?

[miguel]

I've noticed several companies sell three-die sets, while Lee tends to offer four-die sets, at least for handgun calibers. I know that fourth Lee die is the factory crimp die. (FCD)

How common is it to use or not use a fourth die to set a "factory" crimp on rounds? Do YOU use it?

Assuming it wouldn't be earth shattering not to use it, since not everyone includes it in their set. But I've got a grand total of 25 rounds loaded under my belt, so WTH do I know?

Opinions and/or facts on this topic are much appreciated!

 

[Tydeeh22]

the factory crimp die does add a bit of consistency to the finished product. every set of pistol dies i have will eventually be outfitted with the factory crimp die. if im going to make ammunition for a purpose, i want it to be as good as possible.

 

[Goodcat]

As far as I understand it, the bullet seating die also act as a crimp die (the 2nd adjustment screw up top), or you can leave that loose and use a 4th die to crimp it independently. Someone else with experience will be a long shortly though.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Some pistol dies seat and crimp in one operation, instead of having two separate dies. I personally like having two separate dies. One for seating, and one for crimping. I have seen a few people crush cases, because they did not have the die set up correctly. Or, there was two much variance in case length.

 

[miguel]

I have seen a few people crush cases, because they did not have the die set up correctly. Or, there was two much variance in case length.

You mean when they use the single seat/crimp dies, rather than one die for each operation, correct?

 

[chuddly]

i seat and crimp my 9mm all in one stage with no problems. My .223 rounds are separate stages though and that works fine too.

 

[Double T]

I have also read that to reduce differences in pressure from case to case, it is recommended to seat and crimp at different times, which makes sense to me as it adds a bit more stability to the seater and the crimp as they aren't rushed all at once.

 

[Broom_jm]

The Lee FCD does not roll or taper crimp cases. It uses a collet system that applies equal pressure from all around the case mouth, pressing in with "fingers" that create what looks and functions like a, well..."factory crimp". This can be advantageous, particularly if you are not seating to a cannelure and would like to make sure that your case mouth is not being crimped too much, which would allow the cartridge to slip into the chamber too far.

The FCD is also very useful with thin-walled cases, like the 44/40 and some folks find that they improve the accuracy of their rounds by creating a consistent start pressure with the uniform crimp. I use the FCD on cases with shorter necks where I worry about insufficient neck tension. YMMV

 

[Skip]

The standard LFCD is an answer to a problem that does not exist and cancause a ton more problems than it fixes.

Why?

Well, if you shoot lead bullets, which real shooters do in handguns (justbeing silly), size of the bullet matters tons in performance. Usually,.002" bigger than bore or throat diameter is preferred. The LFCD willresize a lead bullet while it is in the case long before it begins to work onthe actual crimp at the case mouth.

The BEST way to crimp a bullet in place is after it is seated, bar none.Adequate results can be attained by doing it in one step but the best resultsmandate a two step process.



What I do in the above situation is use 2 standard seating/crimping dies.Remember, I am loading on a progressive. The first one will seat the bullet andremove the bell put on the case at the powder measure. The last one is set upso it does not touch the bullet but works on the outside of the case producingthe crimp I want.



Here is the BEST way to bypass this problem with straight walled pistolcases.

This is a picture of a rifle LFCD but these are made special for RanchDog for pistol cartridges. They do not work on the case EXCEPT at the case mouth in the crimp area.

FWIW

 

[Broom_jm]

Skip,

I presume all of the above is intended to address issues with cast lead bullets, but is it equally applicable to plated bullets?

Do you have any issue with the Lee FCD as used with conventional jacketed bullets?

 

[Skip]

Skip,

I presume all of the above is intended to address issues with cast lead bullets, but is it equally applicable to plated bullets?

Do you have any issue with the Lee FCD as used with conventional jacketed bullets?

No, it does not apply to either BUT, what is the main purpose of the LFCD?
To make ammo that chambers reliably in your firearm, right? How many times have you seen jacketed bullets that were so big from their respective factory that they needed to be squished down, so to speak.

So, the LFCD for normal handgun ammo is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist EXCEPT in the inability for some folks to load their own ammo. It DOES remove some mistakes made by the loader, now, yeah, then you NEED one.

 

[imjammin]

I really like using a 4 die set with the Lee factory crimp in the fourth position.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

The crimp die removes the bell that is produced when using the powder through expanding die. How is that an answer to a problem that does not exist?

 

[45fan]

I have never used the lee FCD on my handgun loads. Everything I have read calls for a taper crimp in auto cartridges (380, 9mm, 45 ACP) and a roll crimp in revolver chamberings. The FCD does neither, and so far I have had sucsessful results in crimping them in the seating operation. I have, on the other hand, used them in .223 and my 30 caliber rifle loads, when it is something I want to have a good crimp on, and the crimp plays no role in headspace.

 

[lovemywoods]

I added a Lee Factory Crimp Die to my 9mm handgun loading routine for two reasons:

-- I prefer to seat and crimp in separate steps to achieve a consistent crimp.

-- Before using the FCD, I had some 9mm rounds that were slightly larger in diameter than the rest. These would cause feeding issues in some chambers. The FCD includes a final sizing ring that compresses any too-large rounds back into spec. Since I started using the FCD, I've had no feeding issues.

 

[kludge]

I use the Lee FCD on revolver cartridges. Magnums need a good crimp and I've found it's easier to do this and get exactly the adjustment I want in two steps. I don't use it on pistol. The Lee seating dies to a perfectly acceptable job of doing a taper crimp.

I occasionally use one on rifles, depending on the bullet and the rifle and the purpose of the ammo.

 

[jedi]

OP I'm in your boat. I have loaded only 50 rounds of .45 so far.
This the process I have used on a RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press

1) Clean the brass in a tumbler
2) Lee pocket primer tool to clean the primer pocket [note 1]
3) Lee resizing die & deprimer
4) Hand prime each case with Lee Hand Tool
5) Lee expansion die with powder drop (not dropping powder at this point)
5) Measure out each powder charge with Hordany digital scale & drop
6) Seat bullet with Lee die
7) Use Lee FCD
8) Tested each round in a lyman case guage

The first 3 I did I SKIPPED step 7 and when I checked them in step 8 the case guage said they were a bit too tall. The did not fall into the gague freely. They would get stuck a bit if I pushed them down they would be OK. In addition they were a little "higher" than the top of the gauage.

So doing step 7 on them and testing/re-testing them in the gauage they all worked OK. I did fire 50 of them with no issues.

My first 3 were not primed and when I used a bullet puller to take the bullet out I did notice that the bullet is now fat very the bottom compared to my brand new stock of bullets. The Lee FCD deformed the bullet a bit (squished it). Not sure if I can reuse these 3 bullets or not.

From what SKIP is saying it looks like in my step 6 I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps not seating the bullet all the way (ie. my bullet dept is too shallow thus my OAL is probably over the MAX for a .45 ACP) and thus the FCD is making the round correct in terms of the OAL. Not sure. Need to take some measurements before the FCD step and afterward to confirm this.

It' still a work in process/learing for me.
What I do know is the FCD gives me a round that works in my 1911. But at the same time it is fixing an error that I am making somewhere in the process. If I can fit that error without having to use the FCD then I save myself one step (& on a single stage that is a lot!).

-Jedi

 

[U.S. Patriot]

OP I'm in your boat. I have loaded only 50 rounds of .45 so far.
This the process I have used on a RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press

1) Clean the brass in a tumbler
2) Lee pocket primer tool to clean the primer pocket [note 1]
3) Lee resizing die & deprimer
4) Hand prime each case with Lee Hand Tool
5) Lee expansion die with powder drop (not dropping powder at this point)
5) Measure out each powder charge with Hordany digital scale & drop
6) Seat bullet with Lee die
7) Use Lee FCD
8) Tested each round in a lyman case guage

The first 3 I did I SKIPPED step 7 and when I checked them in step 8 the case guage said they were a bit too tall. The did not fall into the gague freely. They would get stuck a bit if I pushed them down they would be OK. In addition they were a little "higher" than the top of the gauage.

So doing step 7 on them and testing/re-testing them in the gauage they all worked OK. I did fire 50 of them with no issues.

My first 3 were not primed and when I used a bullet puller to take the bullet out I did notice that the bullet is now fat very the bottom compared to my brand new stock of bullets. The Lee FCD deformed the bullet a bit (squished it). Not sure if I can reuse these 3 bullets or not.

From what SKIP is saying it looks like in my step 6 I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps not seating the bullet all the way (ie. my bullet dept is too shallow thus my OAL is probably over the MAX for a .45 ACP) and thus the FCD is making the round correct in terms of the OAL. Not sure. Need to take some measurements before the FCD step and afterward to confirm this.

It' still a work in process/learing for me.
What I do know is the FCD gives me a round that works in my 1911. But at the same time it is fixing an error that I am making somewhere in the process. If I can fit that error without having to use the FCD then I save myself one step (& on a single stage that is a lot!).

-Jedi

I believe you are over thinking things. If you use the powder through expanding die, it flares the case mouth. This allows the bullet to be seated without crushing the case. The crimp die is used to remove the "bell" that was formed by the powder through expanding die. If you do not remove the "bell", then the OD of the case mouth will be out of spec. Measure the OD of the case mouth after sizing, then measure it again after it has been ran through the powder through expanding die. Then try to drop it into the case gage. You'll understand that it is a needed step.

 

[jedi]

I believe you are over thinking things. If you use the powder through expanding die, it flares the case mouth. This allows the bullet to be seated without crushing the case. The crimp die is used to remove the "bell" that was formed by the powder through expanding die. If you do not remove the "bell", then the OD of the case mouth will be out of spec. Measure the OD of the case mouth after sizing, then measure it again after it has been ran through the powder through expanding die. Then try to drop it into the case gage. You'll understand that it is a needed step.

You are right I do still have a "bell" after step 6. I guess my LEE die only seats then no crimp right? I have the LEE 4 set die. So I eitehr need to use the FCD to remove the "bell" in step 7 or use some other die that will crimp in step 7 to remove the bell right?

-Jedi

 

[U.S. Patriot]

You are right I do still have a "bell" after step 6. I guess my LEE die only seats then no crimp right? I have the LEE 4 set die. So I eitehr need to use the FCD to remove the "bell" in step 7 or use some other die that will crimp in step 7 to remove the bell right?

-Jedi

Yes, with the four die set. 1. Sizing/decapping die 2. Powder through expanding die 3. Bullet seating die 4. Crimp die. You can get dies that seat and crimp in one operation. I personally like to to seat and crimp as seperate operations.