Time Magazine:"the REAL reason for the Civil War was to end slavery"

[Bapak2ja]

I think you are right on this one. It seems to be like discussing religion - no matter how many FACTS you provide, most religious people are totally unwilling to change their way of thinking, because that is how they were taught, and it HAS to be right.

Did you know that in the 1980's Japanese schoolbooks still taught that the reason we did not use Atomic bombs on the Germans was that they were white, and we reserved them for the Japanese because we felt that they were sub-human? I actually had this conversation with a Japanese student in 1982. I provided PROOF that the Germans had surrendered in May of 1945, and that we didn't even test the first A-bomb until August 1'st. However he stuck to his beliefs, because that was what he was taught.

Excellent example of the power of worldview presuppositions.

 

[E5RANGER375]

To MANY of the everyday common men who fought the Civil War, it WAS about slavery.

That's why my great grandfather says he fought.

How do I know?

My mother was born in 1914, the youngest of her siblings.
(she lived to age 93 and passed in 2008, clear headed up to within a few days of her death)
She passed on MUCH family history to me throughout my life.

In her youth there were many of her living relatives who knew her grandfather.

EVERY one of them quoted him as saying he fought "to free the slaves" when he spoke of fighting in the Civil War..

I REALIZE there were several reasons for the Civil War, but OFTEN in history, the common man has his own slant on WHY he is involved.

All too often the perspective of the "common man" isn't taken into account when discussing history.
Make no mistake, LONG before the Civil War a large share of everyday people were disgusted by slavery, and held slaveholders with absolute contempt.
My genealogical studies of writings from my own family back this up.

theres a lot of common mens (soldiers) journals during the war that say they could have gave a **** less about the slaves and wouldnt die to save any slave. also after the emancipation proclamation the desertions in the army skyrocketed. they felt duped by lincoln. I would like to see a journal of your great grandfathers DURING the war to see what he REALLY thought about dying for a slave before I will believe the handed down fluffed up story. after the fact of events, lots of people claim different reasons for why they really did something. I dont rely on hearsay as historical record. of coarse people in the north are gonna say they fought to free the slaves. thats the best cover story they have to why they broke the law of the constitution and invaded sovereign states and murdered hundreds of thousands of americans

 

[Kirk Freeman]

theres a lot of common mens (soldiers) journals during the war that say they could have gave a **** less about the slaves and wouldnt die to save any slave.

Very true. The journals of Union soldiers are filled with references to crushing "secshists" and saving the country. E.g., Hoosier Farmboy in Lincoln's Army, Private J. R. McClure.

 

[Hkindiana]

theres a lot of common mens (soldiers) journals during the war that say they could have gave a **** less about the slaves and wouldnt die to save any slave. also after the emancipation proclamation the desertions in the army skyrocketed. they felt duped by lincoln. I would like to see a journal of your great grandfathers DURING the war to see what he REALLY thought about dying for a slave before I will believe the handed down fluffed up story. after the fact of events, lots of people claim different reasons for why they really did something. I dont rely on hearsay as historical record. of coarse people in the north are gonna say they fought to free the slaves. thats the best cover story they have to why they broke the law of the constitution and invaded sovereign states and murdered hundreds of thousands of americans

That reminds me of the "resistance" fighters in France during WWII. According to the people I have spoken with, who were there, the numbers of resistance fighters was VERY SMALL in France UNTIL it was obvious that the Germans were losing the war and were retreating out of France. Then, MANY "brave" Frenchmen grabbed a rifle and shot a German in the back as he was retreating. These men and women then all claimed to have been partisans and resistance fighters during the war.

 

[Terp7]

I wasn't trying to say that slavery wasn't the main issue that the war revolved around. I happen to agree with Freeman and think it was. I was just saying it was the secession that the majority of Union states used as their reason for joining the war.

There were many reasons that people fought for the war - and whatever a person's reason was was their right to have. I just thought it was interesting how many people had different beliefs for why they fought.

 

[edporch]

theres a lot of common mens (soldiers) journals during the war that say they could have gave a **** less about the slaves and wouldnt die to save any slave. also after the emancipation proclamation the desertions in the army skyrocketed. they felt duped by lincoln. I would like to see a journal of your great grandfathers DURING the war to see what he REALLY thought about dying for a slave before I will believe the handed down fluffed up story. after the fact of events, lots of people claim different reasons for why they really did something. I dont rely on hearsay as historical record. of coarse people in the north are gonna say they fought to free the slaves. thats the best cover story they have to why they broke the law of the constitution and invaded sovereign states and murdered hundreds of thousands of americans

So now my family are all liars?
Believe what you want about my great grandfather who was in the Civil War.

I also have a writing from my great grandfather on my father's side who spoke of living in the Indianapolis area for a time in the 1830's.
He writes of a man from the South who moved near them.
This man had a female slave, and the people around him despised this man.
He caused the death of this woman by his mistreatment of her and had to flee for his life to keep from being lynched, as the local people had LITTLE tolerance for him anyway.
But of course my great grandfather on my father's side is probably somebody you assume is a liar too.
Never realized til now what a family of scoundrels and liars I'm from...
Thanks for enlightening me. :-)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I was just saying it was the secession that the majority of Union states used as their reason for joining the war.

Well, the Union was attacked and that is pretty good reason to "join the war".

But, with the exception of Kentucky, which suffered a Southern invasion and then joined the Union, I would say that a majority of those fighting for the Union fought to preserve the Union. However, again, the motives of the Union are immaterial.

 

[cbseniour]

I thought that glock v 1911, concealed v open got you guys going. This is the best thread I've read since I joined INGO,
Way to go guys!!!!!!!

 

[E5RANGER375]

So now my family are all liars?
Believe what you want about my great grandfather who was in the Civil War.

I also have a writing from my great grandfather on my father's side who spoke of living in the Indianapolis area for a time in the 1830's.
He writes of a man from the South who moved near them.
This man had a female slave, and the people around him despised this man.
He caused the death of this woman by his mistreatment of her and had to flee for his life to keep from being lynched, as the local people had LITTLE tolerance for him anyway.
But of course my great grandfather on my father's side is probably somebody you assume is a liar too.
Never realized til now what a family of scoundrels and liars I'm from...
Thanks for enlightening me. :-)

i never called them liars. I just know how stories of family history can become embelished over the years as stories are passed down. its not intentional lying. even if he himself embraced the "slavery" issue to help himself cope with what he did after the war. no one is calling your family liars. I had family who fought for the union and the confederacy. I have a couple journals and a family bible, and none of them mention slavery as the reason for the war or their participation in it. but thats just one small part if the big picture. even if it did I wouldnt judge them. If I grew up in the south back then Im sure I would have been all for slavery because my family owned slaves, it would have been ingrained in me. the people in the north might not have liked slavery but they were more than willing to reap the benefits of the wealth slave labor generated. its also important to note that blacks werent the only slaves. there were white slaves and asian slaves etc. just like the jews werent the only group targeted and killed by hitler.

 

[Lewis]

I believe that it is fashionable in this time to say it was about slavery,just to please the masses. But alot of southern's did not own slaves or even support slavery. But when the central goverment wants to increase it hold on the local goverment not to many, approve of this, it is working really well now by the way. Many of my ancestors took up arms against Federal goverment because of there location and Yankee aggression...........

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But when the central goverment wants to increase it hold on the local goverment not to many, approve of this, it is working really well now by the way.

The South feared that the federal government would increase its power over Southern slaves.

Note that the South did not allow secession either, hence the State of Jones (soon to be a movie based on the recent book). What is your opinion on Southern aggression toward the State of Jones?

If this new cover story of "states' rights" is correct, why couldn't the State of Jones leave Mississippi? Could entire states inside the CSA leave the CSA? Could a state in the CSA prohibit slavery and any slave that crossed its sacred state line immediately become free? Was it not the beloved right of the state to outlaw slavery? What does the CSA Constitution say about this?

Given the mountain of evidence that the South started the war because of slavery, what evidence, outside of an L. Neil Smith novel, do you cite that this was some struggle over states' rights? Vice President Stephens made race and slavery the Cornerstone of the CSA. Why didn't Stephens merely mention the beloved concept of "states' rights" the Cornerstone of his speech? Why did the proclamations of the Southern states merely mention their fear of a central government rather than explicitly mention race and slavery? If the states continually mention race and slavery, don't you think this is the reason for the war?

Many of my ancestors took up arms against Federal goverment because of there location and Yankee aggression

Yankee aggression? It was the South that started the killing in Bleeding Kansas. It was the South that fired on Fort Sumter.

I believe you have it inverted. Only one state joined a side because of aggression and that was Kentucky, joining the Union because of Southern aggression.

What "Yankee aggression" did your ancestors object to?

 

[edporch]

i never called them liars. I just know how stories of family history can become embelished over the years as stories are passed down. its not intentional lying. even if he himself embraced the "slavery" issue to help himself cope with what he did after the war. no one is calling your family liars. I had family who fought for the union and the confederacy. I have a couple journals and a family bible, and none of them mention slavery as the reason for the war or their participation in it. but thats just one small part if the big picture. even if it did I wouldnt judge them. If I grew up in the south back then Im sure I would have been all for slavery because my family owned slaves, it would have been ingrained in me. the people in the north might not have liked slavery but they were more than willing to reap the benefits of the wealth slave labor generated. its also important to note that blacks werent the only slaves. there were white slaves and asian slaves etc. just like the jews werent the only group targeted and killed by hitler.

I hope we can just agree to disagree.
It's not at all a stretch to believe that there were people in the pre Civil War as well as the Civil War days who were disgusted with slavery.
I view it in a way like the abortion issue of today, in the sense that there's something that's legal, yet there's a sizable amount of people who are against it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It's not at all a stretch to believe that there were people in the pre Civil War as well as the Civil War days who were disgusted with slavery.

Well, opposition to slavery was the reason for being of the Republican Party.

 

[Hkindiana]

The south feared the loss of slavery, and thus wanted to leave the Union, so slavery WAS an issue, if not THE issue for the south. They wanted "states rights" to continue doing what they were doing.

The north wanted to PRESERVE the Union, and fought to keep the south from leaving. As Lincoln himself pointed out, if he could have kept the Union together, he didn't care whether or not there was slavery.

So, the North WAS NOT fighting to end slavery, but to maintain the Union.

 

[Hkindiana]

The south feared the loss of slavery, and thus wanted to leave the Union, so slavery WAS an issue, if not THE issue for the south. They wanted "states rights" to continue doing what they were doing.

The north wanted to PRESERVE the Union, and fought to keep the south from leaving. As Lincoln himself pointed out, if he could have kept the Union together, he didn't care whether or not there was slavery.

So, the North WAS NOT fighting to end slavery, but to maintain the Union.

 

[PatriotPride]

My God. As much as I hate to say it, it's probably best to ignore the people who state the "facts" that the Civil War was started over slavery. You can't reason with them.

 

[grimor]

My God. As much as I hate to say it, it's probably best to ignore the people who state the "facts" that the Civil War was started over slavery. You can't reason with them.

I was just thinking the same thing about the people who state the "fact" that the Civil War wasn't started over slavery

 

[88GT]

Hence my references to 1808.

Well, I was thinking a might bit earlier. Like, oh, you know, when they got together and started hashing out how to join 13 separate states into one union.

It rarely makes the history books, even the good ones, but some soon-to-be states made it clear that if slavery was prohibited, they would not be joining the union.

 

[E5RANGER375]

My God. As much as I hate to say it, it's probably best to ignore the people who state the "facts" that the Civil War was started over slavery. You can't reason with them.

i agree. this is the north. hard headed.

the fact is that the south, even if they wanted to preserve slavery had every constitutional right to leave the union for whatever reason. slavery was legal anyways, so they had no reason to leave the union over slavery alone, especially.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Well, I was thinking a might bit earlier. Like, oh, you know, when they got together and started hashing out how to join 13 separate states into one union.

1808 is from the Constitution of 1787. It is the slave import ban date compromise to appease the South.

We do agree that slavery was an issue for the South even before there was a United States of America.