To Dry Fire or Not to Dry Fire...That is the question!

[BE Mike]

I use snap caps and don't worry about it.

Any damage being done probably won't be evident until the part fails (unless you magnaflux them after cleaning ). It may not fail, or it may either way I prefer to do what I can to take care of the things I own and may trust my life to; so I don't dry fire on an empty chamber of anything. YMMV.

I dry fire my carry guns and have for years. I want to be very comfortable with my carry guns. As rvb does, I don't dry fire them nearly as much as a competition gun and don't shoot them nearly as much. Modern materials make breakage of parts much more rare than in decades past. If it makes you uncomfortable to dry fire your carry gun, then by all means don't do it. I suppose one could have duplicate pistols and practice with one and shoot and dry fire the heck out of the other.

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

I really do not understand all these threads.
Would you drive your car and not use the brakes?
You are saying, I just use the engine torque to slow me down.
for a couple of dollars. You slip in a snap cap.
ONE you know the chamber is empty of a live round.
SECOND you know a live round will Accidently slip into chamber.
A snap cap is not extracted when you reset the slide.

For everyone safety use snap caps.

 

[308jake]

Proof reading is a good thing. Also, what kind of snap caps don't extract when you rack the slide?

 

[indygunguy]

I really do not understand all these threads.
Would you drive your car and not use the brakes?
You are saying, I just use the engine torque to slow me down.
for a couple of dollars. You slip in a snap cap.
ONE you know the chamber is empty of a live round.
SECOND you know a live round will Accidently slip into chamber.
A snap cap is not extracted when you reset the slide.

For everyone safety use snap caps.

I like dancing bananas

 

[88E30M50]

Proof reading is a good thing. Also, what kind of snap caps don't extract when you rack the slide?

The best kind! When dry firing, I use a Laserlyte laser cartridge that is rimless. Not only does it let me safely dry fire all I want, but it helps me with point shooting. When working from home and stuck on a long conference call, I dry fire with the laser cartridge and plink at anything and everything in the room.

 

[miguel]

The best kind! When dry firing, I use a Laserlyte laser cartridge that is rimless. Not only does it let me safely dry fire all I want, but it helps me with point shooting. When working from home and stuck on a long conference call, I dry fire with the laser cartridge and plink at anything and everything in the room.

Salty.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/2...yte-_-299936&gclid=CO-k5trIvtQCFQMMaQodtqcJdw

 

[JAL]

The owner manuals also say no reloads. I guess those tens of thousands of rounds that I've loaded and shot should have ruined all of the guns I've ever owned. I've owned two Beretta 92FS. One was a custom gun built by Tony Kidd, formerly of the USAMU. I dry fired and continue to dry fire them. No damage. I will agree that one should avoid dropping a slide on an empty chamber of a 1911. Of course military manuals and manual of arms are developed for the lowest common denominator.

Regarding reloads:
I don't know of any current firearm manufacturer that doesn't have the "Don't use reloads" admonition in all their current user manuals. It's product liability CYA as there are Village Idiots who will do idiotic things with reloads. Tragically, unintended reloading errors occur as well. Dry firing admonitions don't have this level of liability CYA to motivate them. Just because the manual contains that admonition, the motive for which should be clear, does not mean the entire manual lacks veracity.

See page 19 of the current Beretta 92FS/M9 user manual.
I put my faith and trust in Beretta's materials, design and reliability engineers versus anecdotal tales on the Internet (there are many more than just your remarks). I also understand the basic metallurgy that can fracture the firing pin. It's caused by a shoulder on the firing pin being repeatedly slammed into a shoulder in the tunnel which slowly changes its internal crystalline structure and embrittles the steel. For those that have never seen a Beretta 92 family firing pin assembly, the photo below shows the firing pin, firing pin spring, firing pin plunger and firing pin block (that carries the plunger in and out of line with the firing pin by moving the safety lever). Unlike my 1911 and Sig P238, the pin isn't completely cylindrical. It has two major cutouts.



The next photo is from a different forum showing a 92FS/M9 firing pin that fractured during dry firing:



According to the OP who posted that photo, at least one end of the center portion had carbon on the fracture indicating it had already been broken during at least one range outing with live ammunition. It apparently still functioned until the tip of the pin broke off which may or may not have coincided with the second internal fracture. The two internal fractures occurred at the ends of the longer cutout, which are two of the five points at which I would predict fracture. The other three are the ends of the other, smaller cutout, and the tip of the pin, which was the third fracture. You may have never experienced a broken firing pin, yet. Unlike the 1911 and P238, it's just as easy for me to use the safety if I need to drop the hammer, or to use a magazine of snap caps for dry firing.

During a 20 year U.S. Army career, the M14A1 (very, very briefly), M16A1, M1911A1 and M9 were, in sequence, my BFF, a concept I stressed and reinforced to everyone in my various commands over the years (although the BFF texting abbreviation wasn't in use yet). It was easy for combat support and combat service support soldiers to ignore their assigned weapons, and they were often subjected to some general handling abuse. Using them wasn't their Day Job. The M16 was, to a good number of them, just one more piece of crap to lug around and get in the way of trying to do the Day Job. Read the after-action report on the 507th Maintenance Company ambush in Iraq. Over a half-dozen failures up and down the chain of command contributed significantly to its occurrence and severity, some long before it occurred, including decisions made well above the company commander. Among them was not properly caring for and performing periodic maintenance on assigned weapons which must be instilled in all soldiers as an essential habit, and reinforced by the chain of command. Many of their rifles jammed (IIRC M16A2) and could not be successfully cleared. I had known a disaster like that would eventually occur since about 1979. Conditions for it were systemic and deeply rooted. It was only a matter of where and when. If I appear passionate about proper weapon care and maintenance, that's the reason.

Fortunately, the guy above experienced complete firing pin failure rendering it inoperative during dry firing at home, and not during a situation in which he's relying on it to function correctly to save his hide in a life or death self-defense situation. Minuscule risk, but given the potential catastrophic consequences, who would knowingly spin the roulette wheel when it's so very easy and inexpensive to avoid it? Those who wish to dry fire the Beretta 92FS/M9 can do so to their heart's content. YMMV regarding if and when the firing pin slips its mortal coils and gives up the ghost.

John

 

[Thor]

 

[rvb]

Beretta 92 FP: $11. (Beretta 90 Series Firing Pins)

Azoom 9mm snap caps: $15 (A-ZOOM AMMO SNAP CAP DUMMY ROUNDS | Brownells)

No big deal. Snap caps aren't that expensive, though I seldom use them. Broken FP isn't the end of the world, and it takes a LOT of dryfire to get to the point it's broken. Mostly likely FP spring not replaced ever or bad part if it didn't last at least a couple years of steady dryfire.

As I said above, damage can happen and is why I don't abuse the carry/nightstand gun as hard. But for a range/competition gun, well, I just carry spare FPs in my range bag. Heck, I should clean out my range back parts bin, even though I haven't competed with a 92 in ~5 yrs, I bet the 92 FP, springs, etc are still in there, along with the 1911 parts, AR parts, Glock parts, etc... For a carry gun, the FPs and assorted springs CAN be replaced before they break (aka PM).

BTW, I broke several other parts on 92s, all long before I ever broke a FP. My practice gun (dryfired nightly for years) went through 2 extractors before the FP broke. My Elite II match gun had the decock lever (the internal part on the frame) break... Definitely not dryfire related. You know those "unbreakable" Wolff trigger return springs? yea, I broke one of those, too... again, long before the FP went.

While I eventually made Grandmaster in USPSA with a glock, I got most of the way there with the Beretta. I made the change only because my match gun was getting too high round count to be reliable for major matches (well north of 60k rounds along with a lot of dryfire) and Beretta no longer made the Elites to replace it. My practice 92 is now junk, as somewhere north of 120k rounds the barrel lugs sheared off, cracking the chamber and frame rails.

So the point of all that is yes, I understand that parts can break. And may cost a couple bucks to replace. But the skill improvement is worth it.

-rvb

 

[BE Mike]

Beretta 92 FP: $11. (Beretta 90 Series Firing Pins)

Azoom 9mm snap caps: $15 (A-ZOOM AMMO SNAP CAP DUMMY ROUNDS | Brownells)

No big deal. Snap caps aren't that expensive, though I seldom use them. Broken FP isn't the end of the world, and it takes a LOT of dryfire to get to the point it's broken. Mostly likely FP spring not replaced ever or bad part if it didn't last at least a couple years of steady dryfire.

As I said above, damage can happen and is why I don't abuse the carry/nightstand gun as hard. But for a range/competition gun, well, I just carry spare FPs in my range bag. Heck, I should clean out my range back parts bin, even though I haven't competed with a 92 in ~5 yrs, I bet the 92 FP, springs, etc are still in there, along with the 1911 parts, AR parts, Glock parts, etc... For a carry gun, the FPs and assorted springs CAN be replaced before they break (aka PM).

BTW, I broke several other parts on 92s, all long before I ever broke a FP. My practice gun (dryfired nightly for years) went through 2 extractors before the FP broke. My Elite II match gun had the decock lever (the internal part on the frame) break... Definitely not dryfire related. You know those "unbreakable" Wolff trigger return springs? yea, I broke one of those, too... again, long before the FP went.

While I eventually made Grandmaster in USPSA with a glock, I got most of the way there with the Beretta. I made the change only because my match gun was getting too high round count to be reliable for major matches (well north of 60k rounds along with a lot of dryfire) and Beretta no longer made the Elites to replace it. My practice 92 is now junk, as somewhere north of 120k rounds the barrel lugs sheared off, cracking the chamber and frame rails.

So the point of all that is yes, I understand that parts can break. And may cost a couple bucks to replace. But the skill improvement is worth it.

-rvb

 

[BE Mike]

Regarding reloads:
I don't know of any current firearm manufacturer that doesn't have the "Don't use reloads" admonition in all their current user manuals. It's product liability CYA as there are Village Idiots who will do idiotic things with reloads. Tragically, unintended reloading errors occur as well. Dry firing admonitions don't have this level of liability CYA to motivate them. Just because the manual contains that admonition, the motive for which should be clear, does not mean the entire manual lacks veracity.

See page 19 of the current Beretta 92FS/M9 user manual.
I put my faith and trust in Beretta's materials, design and reliability engineers versus anecdotal tales on the Internet (there are many more than just your remarks). I also understand the basic metallurgy that can fracture the firing pin. It's caused by a shoulder on the firing pin being repeatedly slammed into a shoulder in the tunnel which slowly changes its internal crystalline structure and embrittles the steel. For those that have never seen a Beretta 92 family firing pin assembly, the photo below shows the firing pin, firing pin spring, firing pin plunger and firing pin block (that carries the plunger in and out of line with the firing pin by moving the safety lever). Unlike my 1911 and Sig P238, the pin isn't completely cylindrical. It has two major cutouts.

View attachment 56546

The next photo is from a different forum showing a 92FS/M9 firing pin that fractured during dry firing:

View attachment 56547

According to the OP who posted that photo, at least one end of the center portion had carbon on the fracture indicating it had already been broken during at least one range outing with live ammunition. It apparently still functioned until the tip of the pin broke off which may or may not have coincided with the second internal fracture. The two internal fractures occurred at the ends of the longer cutout, which are two of the five points at which I would predict fracture. The other three are the ends of the other, smaller cutout, and the tip of the pin, which was the third fracture. You may have never experienced a broken firing pin, yet. Unlike the 1911 and P238, it's just as easy for me to use the safety if I need to drop the hammer, or to use a magazine of snap caps for dry firing.

During a 20 year U.S. Army career, the M14A1 (very, very briefly), M16A1, M1911A1 and M9 were, in sequence, my BFF, a concept I stressed and reinforced to everyone in my various commands over the years (although the BFF texting abbreviation wasn't in use yet). It was easy for combat support and combat service support soldiers to ignore their assigned weapons, and they were often subjected to some general handling abuse. Using them wasn't their Day Job. The M16 was, to a good number of them, just one more piece of crap to lug around and get in the way of trying to do the Day Job. Read the after-action report on the 507th Maintenance Company ambush in Iraq. Over a half-dozen failures up and down the chain of command contributed significantly to its occurrence and severity, some long before it occurred, including decisions made well above the company commander. Among them was not properly caring for and performing periodic maintenance on assigned weapons which must be instilled in all soldiers as an essential habit, and reinforced by the chain of command. Many of their rifles jammed (IIRC M16A2) and could not be successfully cleared. I had known a disaster like that would eventually occur since about 1979. Conditions for it were systemic and deeply rooted. It was only a matter of where and when. If I appear passionate about proper weapon care and maintenance, that's the reason.

Fortunately, the guy above experienced complete firing pin failure rendering it inoperative during dry firing at home, and not during a situation in which he's relying on it to function correctly to save his hide in a life or death self-defense situation. Minuscule risk, but given the potential catastrophic consequences, who would knowingly spin the roulette wheel when it's so very easy and inexpensive to avoid it? Those who wish to dry fire the Beretta 92FS/M9 can do so to their heart's content. YMMV regarding if and when the firing pin slips its mortal coils and gives up the ghost.

John

Thank you for your service to our country, contributing to our ability to have firearms and firearms discussions. I don't think that anyone will refute your stand on gun maintenance, but we're back to the original question. I've found that over the years (decades actually) that the vast majority of owners of handguns have little skill with their chosen sidearms. It seems like little effort is put forth these days to hone those skills. Dry firing, while it will eventually wear out gun parts, is essential to developing marksmanship. The lack of marksmanship IMHO is much more cause for concern (by the public at large) than the chance that a part will eventually fail. I didn't read the after action report of the ambush, and wonder just what caused all those failures. Could it be that everyone in the unit used some kind of substance to spray on their rifles that caused the problems? I think that support troops are typically thought of as not having a sense of urgency when it comes to their personal weapons, at least not anywhere near the level of combat of arms troops.

 

[cedartop]

The one thing I won't do with my 1911 is drop the slide full force on an empty chamber, nor do I use the slide stop to release the slide, even though the military did this routinely as part of the manual of arms. Exception: in a firefight I usually do it during a reload, especially a quick one.

John

That is very interesting. How many pistol firefights were you in? I assumed that was a pretty rare thing in the military. How many of those did you reload in? Even though you never practiced using the slide lever to release the slide, you still managed to use it in the middle of a firefight?

 

[ahutchinson317]

Dry fire builds muscle memory

 

[oldpink]

It's common knowledge that most rimfires should never be dry fired, but it's also a bad idea to do it with certain centerfire guns with a two-piece firing pin.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this one, but I believe the Springfield 1903 is one such gun.