To Mask or Not to Mask?

[JettaKnight]

I've already died twice!

Third times the charm?

 

[printcraft]

Third times the charm?

If only!

 

[jsharmon7]

Regarding mask efficacy, it would be important to know where people are getting the virus. People don’t wear them at home or with friends, so it could easily spread there. Public places are just one of many opportunities to catch it. I’m not convinced either way, so it makes no sense to me how people can be 100% for or against them.

 

[BugI02]

Just think of all the dead bodies that would have been piling up if most people were not wearing masks.

Mask wearing seems a lot like socialism. If it can't be shown to be working then you're not doing it right, but it gets uncritically credited for any positive development it happens to be adjacent to

 

[nonobaddog]

Mask wearing seems a lot like socialism. If it can't be shown to be working then you're not doing it right, but it gets uncritically credited for any positive development it happens to be adjacent to

Yes! Great analogy.

 

[actaeon277]

I've already died twice!

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I went to Chicago back in September and was shocked to see the level of compliance with their mask mandates. Like 99%, outdoors, on a beautiful day. A friend in our group even asked a cop if they were enforcing it. The cop, one of the few people I saw unmasked, laughed and said, no.

Coming from St Joe Co, where compliance has never been close to that, it was kinda shocking.

Chicago's current positivity rate is 13.4%, St Joe Co's is 14.4%.

Remind me what these masks are supposed to do.

Chicago population density a bit under 12k, St Joe Co. 580. So a much much higher density about 20x higher, and while I'm not that familiar with St Joe Co I'm going to guess a much higher dependence on public transportation. There are a lot of factors involved, only one of which is masks.

 

[mbkintner]

Not wearing a mask? Don't worry, Disney has you covered digitally...literally.

https://wdwnt.com/2020/12/photo-wal...masks-over-maskless-guests-in-on-ride-photos/

 

[traderdan]

Mask wearing seems a lot like socialism. If it can't be shown to be working then you're not doing it right, but it gets uncritically credited for any positive development it happens to be adjacent to

Great! Absolutely true...

 

[JettaKnight]

Mask wearing seems a lot like socialism. If it can't be shown to be working then you're not doing it right, but it gets uncritically credited for any positive development it happens to be adjacent to

That could literally said about a dozen things, including gun ownership.

 

[churchmouse]

That could literally said about a dozen things, including gun ownership.

Gun ownership.....

 

[JettaKnight]

Gun ownership.....

OK... I'll stick my neck out there...


Gun laws loosen, more people carry... and at the same time crime goes down. Are they directly related? I'd like to think so, but obviously I'm biased pro-gun. There's a few limited studies, but I don't think it's enough to form a solid link.



Don't misconstrue any of this to think I'm not in favor of less restriction and more carry, I'm just pointing out that people can look on that situation with the same skeptical eye as some look on masks.


Bug's argument can be used for everything - capitalism, diversity, socialism, diets, faith-based healing ... you name it. Especially that last one: "Not healed? You didn't pray hard enough. You're bronchitis went away? It was because you prayed."

 

[jamil]

That could literally said about a dozen things, including gun ownership.

Would that even make it untrue? The point to me is that people just believe masks work, ignore contradictory information, and then uncritically praise masks for desirable results. When someone points out some circumstance where correlation is neutral, someone else is eager to point out recite "correlation doesn't imply causation", but then they forget that principle when the coincidence favors them. I'm not saying masks have no benefits, I suspect they do. But some of the studies claiming to estimate the thing that would really tell us to what extent masks are effective--being able to know the extent to which masks affect the R0--are based on models which make assumptions about how the disease spreads, and how masks might mitigate that. That's effectively circular reasoning. While I think masks have greater than zero impact, I think the legitimate confidence we should have in masks is less than one side of the argument is willing to admit.

 

[JettaKnight]

Would that even make it untrue? The point to me is that people just believe masks work, ignore contradictory information, and then uncritically praise masks for desirable results. When someone points out some circumstance where correlation is neutral, someone else is eager to point out recite "correlation doesn't imply causation", but then they forget that principle when the coincidence favors them. I'm not saying masks have no benefits, I suspect they do. But some of the studies claiming to estimate the thing that would really tell us to what extent masks are effective--being able to know the extent to which masks affect the R0--are based on models which make assumptions about how the disease spreads, and how masks might mitigate that. That's effectively circular reasoning. While I think masks have greater than zero impact, I think the legitimate confidence we should have in masks is less than one side of the argument is willing to admit.

You're right - but Bug pulls out INGO's whipping boy Socialism as an easy way to demonize masks and their supporters, I think he needs to work harder.

 

[BugI02]

You're right - but Bug pulls out INGO's whipping boy Socialism as an easy way to demonize masks and their supporters, I think he needs to work harder.

It is the perfect example. It has never worked and likely will never work due to human nature, but its adherrents blame everything else but socialism

It isn't that socialism doesn't work, it's that "The man didn't have the proper form"

 

[foszoe]

It is the perfect example. It has never worked and likely will never work due to human nature, but its adherrents blame everything else but socialism

It isn't that socialism doesn't work, it's that "The man didn't have the proper form"

Worked pretty well in Acts

 

[jamil]

Worked pretty well in Acts

Socialism scaled small can work. Families usually live on a lot of socialist principle. Scaled, its tyranny. Always.

 

[foszoe]

Socialism scaled small can work. Families usually live on a lot of socialist principle. Scaled, its tyranny. Always.

We could say capitalism doesn't scale well either otherwise monopolies would be fine, right?

 

[jamil]

We could say capitalism doesn't scale well either otherwise monopolies would be fine, right?

Not true. Capitalism is the default human behavior. There’s always a market, even in socialism, even when it’s not sanctioned by government. Just because it’s capitalism doesn’t mean laws are unnecessary. It’s good to look at both sides of an issue, bu the thing you’re looking for is what’s true about it. The truth is that Capitalism isn’t perfect. Society still needs laws. But Capitalism scales much better than socialism. Individual liberty is at least possible for most people in a capitalist system. It’s inherently individualistic. Socialism is collectivist and not compatible with scaled individual liberty. With Capitalism the people pursue their own dreams. With socialism people pursue a revolution to free themselves...once the indoctrination wears off.

 

[jamil]

Foz: in defense of socialism.