To take action or not take action? That is the question.

[turnandshoot4]

The good samartan in the Walmart that got killed by the female accomplice is what turned my thinking from pure Sheepdog to Labrador. Even if your family isn't at the scene, who's going to take care of them if you aren't around?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOHBSuY7TM

Wasn't even in his wheel house to shoot a woman.

 

[Jackson]

There is no correct answer.

I couldn't answer without knowing what there is to know about any given situation. Also, as rhino pointed out, all the things I DON'T know the situation.

I've got to be sure its worth one or all of the following (in no particular order):
Losing everything I own?
Pooping in a bag for the rest of my life?
Killing someone I shouldn't have?
Dying?

Some things are worth that. Or so heinous or so obvious that the calculation doesn't even happen. Some things aren't. Having enough information to make the decision in time is the trick.

 

[MarkC]

. . . Having enough information to make the decision in time is the trick.

And, sometimes, we have to make decisions quickly, based on the best available information. If the decision is forced, and I am presented with insufficient information, I hope that I will have the good judgment to take the most prudent course of action.

Of course, that is what we hope for everyone-that they have the underlying good judgment to make better decisions when the pressure is on.

 

[Ark]

I think this is between each person and their own soul. Nobody else has the right, or the ability, to make that decision for you. Even you don't fully control what you're going to do ahead of time. You might end up like the guy who trains hard and spends tons of money to go skydiving, then goes up in the plane and discovers his feet just won't move toward the door, no way no how. Up until that second, he was 100% sure he had what it takes.

That said, I think it can be useful to do some self-examination and try to establish some guidelines for yourself ahead of time. What are my obligations in life? What, realistically, is my skill level? What is within the envelope of situations I can probably handle, and what isn't? Am I likely to do more harm than good? Are there other ways I can help a given situation that will be more beneficial? Even if you can't predict how you'll react, it's better to have at least some kind of mindset developed ahead of time that can potentially stop you from doing something truly stupid. A little voice in the back of your head saying "no, dude, we talked about this, you have a family and you are not allowed to get shot over petty change and a carton of smokes at the mini-mart" could save your life.

I am somewhat "privileged" compared to others, in that regard. I have what I perceive to be a lot of leniency in my decision-making. I have kind of a loser life. No family depending on me, replaceable low-status job, not a whole lot on the line other than life/freedom/health/mobility like anyone else. I get the privilege of deciding for myself whether something is worth my life or not, knowing that everyone I care about will probably be okay without me. Not everybody can say the same, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for taking a cold, rational look at a situation and concluding "I am not responsible for these people. My family depends on me making it home. My disabled son cannot fend for himself in the world without me. I need to run out this door and live.". I take responsibility for my own defense specifically because I understand not everyone else in the world is willing or able to do it for me.

If I could boil it down to one guiding principle? "Don't **** it up". Try to be smart, try to do the right thing, try not to do the wrong thing. I don't know if any of us can realistically hope for more.

 

[cedartop]

There is no correct answer.

I couldn't answer without knowing what there is to know about any given situation. Also, as rhino pointed out, all the things I DON'T know the situation.

I've got to be sure its worth one or all of the following (in no particular order):
Losing everything I own?
Pooping in a bag for the rest of my life?
Killing someone I shouldn't have?
Dying?

Some things are worth that. Or so heinous or so obvious that the calculation doesn't even happen. Some things aren't. Having enough information to make the decision in time is the trick.

I think this is between each person and their own soul. Nobody else has the right, or the ability, to make that decision for you. Even you don't fully control what you're going to do ahead of time. You might end up like the guy who trains hard and spends tons of money to go skydiving, then goes up in the plane and discovers his feet just won't move toward the door, no way no how. Up until that second, he was 100% sure he had what it takes.

That said, I think it can be useful to do some self-examination and try to establish some guidelines for yourself ahead of time. What are my obligations in life? What, realistically, is my skill level? What is within the envelope of situations I can probably handle, and what isn't? Am I likely to do more harm than good? Are there other ways I can help a given situation that will be more beneficial? Even if you can't predict how you'll react, it's better to have at least some kind of mindset developed ahead of time that can potentially stop you from doing something truly stupid. A little voice in the back of your head saying "no, dude, we talked about this, you have a family and you are not allowed to get shot over petty change and a carton of smokes at the mini-mart" could save your life.

I am somewhat "privileged" compared to others, in that regard. I have what I perceive to be a lot of leniency in my decision-making. I have kind of a loser life. No family depending on me, replaceable low-status job, not a whole lot on the line other than life/freedom/health/mobility like anyone else. I get the privilege of deciding for myself whether something is worth my life or not, knowing that everyone I care about will probably be okay without me. Not everybody can say the same, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for taking a cold, rational look at a situation and concluding "I am not responsible for these people. My family depends on me making it home. My disabled son cannot fend for himself in the world without me. I need to run out this door and live.". I take responsibility for my own defense specifically because I understand not everyone else in the world is willing or able to do it for me.

If I could boil it down to one guiding principle? "Don't **** it up". Try to be smart, try to do the right thing, try not to do the wrong thing. I don't know if any of us can realistically hope for more.

I like both of these answers. I will say that I am going to fall more heavily on the side of act rather than not act. Of course as many have mentioned it is very context driven. What Ark said about having it in your mind what you are going to do beforehand is very important or you will likely dither and may pay for it. FOR ME, assuming we are not talking about stuff like shoplifting, or punks fighting each other or things like that, I am going to intervene. This doesn't just apply to situations where a gun is involved, but could be medical emergencies or other situations as well. How do I know this? Because I have had to do it before.

What you have to be careful of is letting your ego overide your capabilities. The problem I see with the "sheepdog" group is there are a lot of big thinkers and talkers, but they are often quite light on actual training or equipment. I don't care how many times you have fantasized about being the hero, if it is a struggle for you to brush the cheetos off your shirt and get up from the recliner, acting might not be your best bet.

BTW, I hate the whole "Sheepdog" moniker. Not sure if it is because of the connection with Grossman or what, but I have always found it comical. Maybe too many cartoons growing up.

 

[cosermann]

...Would I intervene if I saw someone being stabbed or raped? Probably, but I'd have to be damn sure that what I thought I saw underway was what was really happening. How does a man straddling a woman in an alley to rape her look different from a plain clothes cop who just got stabbed or shot by a woman and who is now on top of her trying to apply handcuffs? At first glance, those two things would have a very similar appearance...

Great thread. Lots of thoughtful responses. Rhino's "hypothetical" reminded me of a similar situation described in this post:

A Cautionary Tale for CCW Permit Carriers? | Active Response Training

 

[WanderingSol07]

I think there are two parts to this, there is the unknown for now, of what will you do or should do, which depends on the circumstances of the moment. To help us decide in advance is to train. train to be accurate so you can make the shot good, train to draw without shooting yourself, train to move off the spot so you don't get shot, train to recognize cover/concealment. The training we do should reduce what we need to think about in the heat of the moment and give us the ability to act safely and decisively if we decide to. Your training will tell you if you can make the shot, do you have a safe place to go to. Your training should give you time to think if you should act, not how you will do it.
Training should also include classes about the law and what happens afterward.

I think people inherently want and will help others, even strangers, we read about them every day. Some have tools (mental and physical) to take them only so far, some get statues made in their likeness. I think we all are about improving our tool set.

I apologize for my poor wordsmithing, but I hope I got my point across.

Good discussion Coach!

Tim.

 

[bwframe]

I think we get in a lot of trouble when we let a mentality dictate what we might do. We also do others an injustice by promoting such mentalities.

Most situations cannot be sorted out on the fly, even if they happen right under your nose.

Wonder how many bad situations have been made worse by someone who "just couldn't stand by and..." ?

Needless to say, training is critical. Especially the FOF training scenarios that help us to understand how badly we can fail.

 

[SSGSAD]

I am fresh off another class. I find my soul stirred by the experience. In the last year I have taken a several classes. I have listened to a variety of opinions on a number of topics in those classes. I have heard conflicting opinions about intervening in crimes that are occurring on the street. In the last few years I have heard people praise the "sheepdog" and the "sheepdog mentality." I have witnessed first hand some folks give testimony about the positive attributes of the sheepdog philosophy. People that I know and respect. (not a huge crowd) I have also in the last couple of years heard a number of people bad mouth the sheepdog and the sheepdog mentality to a fairly severe level. I have heard a few lectures on how silly and incorrect that mentality is. Once again from people I respect but perhaps I know them a little less thoroughly. But I definitely respect them.

So the problem is conflicting viewpoints and advice. Particularly on the topic of intervening in crimes going down in public. If "innocent" people are being brutalized or killed but not anyone I know. Should I get involved and try to stop the crime or just mind my own business? What does INGO say is the correct answer? Why is very important here.

JMHO, if you DON'T know what is going on, leave it alone .....

There was a shooting at the store where I do security ... Before I arrived on the scene .....

If I would have pulled up during the last half of this shooting, and there would be no way of knowing what was going on, I would have shot an innocent man .....

NOW what he was doing, was illegal, but that was not for me to decide .....

The victim, was shooting at two fleeing persons, which we all know, is a big no, no .....

I would have pulled up, and ordered him to stop, and if he did NOT, then I would probably have shot him .....

The rest of the story is ..... HE was the victim, of an attempted robbery, and was defending himself .....

 

[Brad69]

Cedartop summed up most of what I had to say.
I have had to physical push well trained physically fit soldiers into a fight. I would say about 1 in 5 people will actually fight most worry about self harm when things get “real”. I do not think it’s cowardice it’s just human nature for self protection.
The “sheepdog” That has never experienced a physical contact fight, trained FOF, took the time and money to train on your weapon, experienced life or death situations will fall into the 1 in 5 categories with a unknown outcome.

Note: Bad people often fight among themselves in public. Don’t get caught fighting to help and end up helping a “bad person”

 

[Tanfodude]

Isn't it dependent on the situation's severity and each ones skill level?

 

[Ark]

Note: Bad people often fight among themselves in public. Don’t get caught fighting to help and end up helping a “bad person”

Yup. Many victims...aren't. Everyone gets rankled at the first hint of "victim blaming" but the truth is that there are kinds of people who tend to catch beatings. You might find yourself leaping to the "defense" of somebody who damn well deserved what they were getting, or instigated the entire thing by being a criminal dickbag 30 seconds before you rounded the corner and got a look at the scene.

I am a believer in bias toward action, I do not ever want to be one of these people in the surveillance videos standing meekly while someone is victimized, but the real world is complicated and the penalties for the wrong call are steep.

 

[bwframe]

One FOF scenario that I ran had me in a gunfight and getting shot. I shot the BG in the back as he ran out the door. One of the rounds I was throwing at him collected an innocent bystander that I didn't even know was there. Could have been your daughter or mine.

I know it was wrong to shoot the BG in the back. However, I'll NEVER forget about hitting the bystander.
Think about watching someone you accidentally shot bleed out while you both wait for the LEO to clear the scene so the medics can come in...

 

[rhino]

Great thread. Lots of thoughtful responses. Rhino's "hypothetical" reminded me of a similar situation described in this post:

A Cautionary Tale for CCW Permit Carriers? | Active Response Training

It was a scenario in one of the tactics classes I did with Louis Awerbuck years ago. An eye-opener.

 

[John Murphy]

https://q13fox.com/2018/11/02/video...5I5yupYHeKl3WYtfTj7H9Xr6rFpm0L-BZtjhOiiL5YySg

A classic "suicide by cop", or in this case, armed citizen scenario.

There's no question that he would have been justified in using deadly force in this instance. There's no ambiguity here...a man advancing with a knife while blood drips from his hands. (Unknown to the citizen is that the perpetrator had just killed is wife with that knife.) Yet he refrained from shooting. Ultimately the murderer was taken into custody.

 

[IsThatLegal?]

I am really enjoying this thread! It is good to stop and assess - and reassess ovrr the years - some general guidelines/limits in case something happens. I was much more likely to involve myself when younger, and single, and not a father. I put myself in harm's way a few times because it was the right thing to do at the time. I am older now, with gray hair and bad knees. There is alot that I cannot do now that I could do when younger - even a few years younger. I have had to stop and admit those shortcomings/limitations. My wife and kids depend on me daily. They have a lot to lose if I make a bad decision. I am much more cautious and less likely to interject if its not my problem, but if it is a situation where it is clear that someone is in danger of losing their life by someone clearly in the wrong I am likely getting involved. Call it an asset or a liability, its how I am wired.

 

[John Murphy]

I have been unable to find an update to this case. This is local to this crew...any news?

https://www.wlwt.com/article/woman-sued-after-shooting-man-in-fight-with-indiana-officer/19843786

 

[rhino]

https://q13fox.com/2018/11/02/video...5I5yupYHeKl3WYtfTj7H9Xr6rFpm0L-BZtjhOiiL5YySg

A classic "suicide by cop", or in this case, armed citizen scenario.

There's no question that he would have been justified in using deadly force in this instance. There's no ambiguity here...a man advancing with a knife while blood drips from his hands. (Unknown to the citizen is that the perpetrator had just killed is wife with that knife.) Yet he refrained from shooting. Ultimately the murderer was taken into custody.

That is really hard to watch.

I'm curious if the guy with the gun understood how much danger he was in at the time while he was backing up. If the guy with the knife had charged him, even if he had gotten some shots into him, there is no guarantee that it would have stopped knife guy before he stabbed/cut/killed him.

I think gun guy was afraid to shoot.