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Train like you live
- Thread starter bwframe
- Start date
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Sounds to me like you guys better catch Mercops class when he's in town. Inverted edge is hard to argue with.
I totally agree on the verbal, I treat that as a given. Verbals and gestures are ongoing.
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Sounds to me like you guys better catch Mercops class when he's in town. Inverted edge is hard to argue with.
Flamethrowers are hard to argue with also, but they are not likely to be used either...
In civilian USA you are far more likely to go from verbal to hands to gun or straight from verbal to gun than from verbal to knife. Refer to Cedar Top's post. Opening a folder in a reactive situation is ...optimistic....and most people do not (or cannot legally) carry a fixed blade. Some of us do but most do not. And while reverse edge knife methods are very effective (and I learned it from Southnarc himself and from Tom Sotis so I know my way around a blade) it really is at its best in touching range...where we try to stay out of.
Do I carry a blade daily? Yes. But I also carry a gun too and it works better at all ranges outside of 2 arms length. I do carry a small fixed blade to cut myself out of a clinch if I get wrapped up and cannot get out. Other than that the gun is going to most likely be the first tool pulled from the belt as a civilian.
The only time I'm rolling with a knife and no gun is if I am somewhere that you cannot take a gun...like another country. In THAT case, simply due to process of elimination I am pretty much left with empty hands or blade. In THAT case then the blade will HAVE to be the tool I reach for. But in civilian world USA the blade is really a niche tool that rarely if ever gets used if the gun can be gotten to. As such the chances of me actually using a knife in a defensive situation is pretty slim...just like my chances of using a flamethrower....
Wow I feel better since I don't carry a knife. At least not one that has a primary use as a weapon. I am not trained in edged techniques so not something I carry. I do always carry a good utility knife and a good flashlight.
Hard to be cool with the white baby monitor and kiddee chair in the backseat of my truck.
Hard to be cool with the white baby monitor and kiddee chair in the backseat of my truck.
You will always be cool in my book.
Gotcha, I'll take SD knife work off my training list. A waist of time and money. I can sell the Emersons and Benchmades and their trainer copies cause the gun makes them obsolete in the civilian world. Sure, I'll do that.
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Gotcha, I'll take SD knife work off my training list. A waist of time and money. I can sell the Emersons and Benchmades and their trainer copies cause the gun makes them obsolete in the civilian world. Sure, I'll do that.
No one is saying to take it off your list. Just like I would not say you should take Precision Rifle off your list...even though you are probably never going to be looking at another human with ill intent through a scope at 600 yards in North America either. We are simply saying that in the hierarchy of things you are REALLY likely to use, a knife is pretty rare in the US. It is not my fault that is reality.....
And if it IS a knife it is not normally a folder carried on the person it is normally a kitchen knife or some other sharp object someone grabs. There's just not that many cases of folks pulling their tactical folder and fending off the felons and fiends. And a REAL knife fight does not look like the "sharks and the jets" in Westside Story where both sides know a fight is going to happen and they get out their knives...it is normally an ambush attack when you are empty handed. Trying to pull your folding knife while under all out pressure is optimistic at best and a dark comedy at worst. You'll either cover up , gain control of the weapon bearing limb and beat them into submission or you'll likely die trying to get your knife out while you should be trying to stop their onslaught. There just is not much knife on knife dueling going on in 21st century America.....especially when we can carry guns.
I'll put it out there a different way.....How many people do you know PERSONALLY (not have heard of, but KNOW personally) that have actually used a knife in a civilian SD situation? I'll bet that is an EXTREMELY short list. I know a boat load of people in this industry and to date I can think of ONE person I know who has actually used a knife to defend themself in the United States (and he came damn close to going to jail for it until the ATM vestibule video tape became available.) But I can name double digits who have used a gun to defend themselves. And I know a fair amount who have used empty hands or an improvised weapon that was laying around (like a beer bottle)to defend themselves in the US.... just something to think about. Applying a dose of reality often changes paradigms.
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Like Randy is saying, we don't dislike knives or knife training. I have learned from Randy, Tom Sotis, and Leslie Buck in person, and from Southnarc, Mike Jancich, and Tom Keating via video. I get the whole knife thing and I enjoy it. I just used to place it higher on my priority list than I do now. Others can place it wherever they want, its just that his was a thread about training like you live, so unless you live in prison, or another country, I just don't see knife being that high up. It was mostly my experiences in prison that led me to seek out knife training in the first place, but that was so I could defend against it, not cut or stab someone.
Just to be clear that was his experience WORKING in a prison not as a long term resident......
And that is the same reasoning behind spending as much time working with blades as I have. You spend the time to learn how to do it well to better defend against it...not because you are going to really ever fight a knife duel. The most useful (my opinion) knife training for most people you can get is going to be where you are having to deal with a sudden knife attack EMPTY HANDED first and then transition to your weapon after you either make space or gain control of them. But if you are carrying both a knife and a gun...the knife ends up "second fiddle" most of the time.
There are guys in this thread who have taken the "Zero To Five Feet Gunfighting" class with me in Rochester last year....what do YOU say? How hard was it to get your folding knife into play when the bad guys were REALLY trying to beat and stab you? Real pressure changes everything.........
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iChokePeople
Master
- Feb 11, 2011
- 4,556
- 48
Stop being a GINGER and get it done. Ginger.
In my experience there and testing with like-minded gentlemen, you'll only get to it through happenstance, and I don't think any of us got to it quickly. By the later cycles, I stopped even bothering with it. I still carry a knife or two most days, both for utility purposes and because it's easy to stash a couple as last-ditch, everything else has failed options, but in those cycles I came away with the notion that the knife was NOT practical for defense against the types of attacks in which you might select the knife.
I struggle to come up with reasonable scenarios in which I'm likely to use a knife for self defense in the US. I agree with those above -- learning and practicing to defend yourself against a blade? Time VERY well spent. Learning to defend yourself WITH a blade? I think it's great to be familiar, and I honestly still spend a fair amount of time doing it simply because I train at a place that has heavy kali influence, but I'm really not there on its practical utility in the USA in 2014. If I have, or can generate, the space to access one of my tools (as opposed to an improvised weapon or equalizer that may present itself), it will be a gun. If I can't do that with a reasonable amount of safety and confidence, it will most likely be eye gouging, ear ripping, arm breaking, head butting, trachea smashing, artery blocking goodness.
Also, there are a lot of people in here who are very competent gunfighters and take regular classes. If you haven't taken a class like THIS one, like zero to five or ECQC or Mike and Josh's upcoming class or similar classes, you really are NOT training for the most likely scenarios. THIS is what real life encounters are most likely to look like. The one-step shuffle on the drawstroke, followed by careful, calm, well-aimed fire? Well, anything could happen, but THIS kind of thing is where I think you really prepare yourself for reality.
ETA: Of course, as always, your mileage may vary.
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