Training ... Private Instruction vs. Public Class?

[NarcoleptiCivil]

My wife and I recently got our LTCH. After looking at various training classes, I realized that to get mentally and physically prepared to carry a gun daily is going to be an expensive adventure. We have about 10 years of firearms experience, and while I'm sure we would learn at least one new thing by taking a Basic Pistol class, spending $300 for us to go through a prerequisite for the class we actually need to take doesn't really work in our budget.

My question: Would Private Instruction with an NRA instructor be a cost effective way to catch up on the Basic/Intermediate Pistol classes that are required by most places prior to starting through the Concealed Carry classes? To any of the trainers on here, would you accept a detailed certification from a private instructor in place of the prerequisite classes?

 

[Jackson]

Which classes are you considering?
What do you think you want to learn?
How far will you travel to train?
Are you looking for a day, or a weekend, or longer?
Can you consistently apply the four rules and maintain safe gun handling?
Do you have experience working from the holster?

There are several good "defensive pistol" or "concealed carry" courses with no prerequisites. All they require is the ability to maintain safe gun handling.

Many good instructors are not NRA instructors. There are other options.

 

[NarcoleptiCivil]

As far as what type of class, I’m not sure exactly. Here is what I would like to know more about:
Physical: I want to learn about situational awareness, transitional spaces, and going from zero to deadly force with confidence.
Mental: I want to take a gun law class to learn the legal ramifications associated with defensive gun use.
Financial: I want to learn more about "carry insurance" (i.e., USCCA and similar).

Where: I would like to stay in North-Central Indiana (Kokomo, Lafayette, Indy, Muncie).
When: 8 hours or less on a weekend

I do follow the four rules, and expect other to do so also. I do not have any experience with drawing from the holster.

 

[VERT]

I can't speak for everyone. But I believe private instruction to be a best value. Up to a point. I personally would accept private instruction to meet prerequisite requirements.

8 hours is not very much time to cover the topics you outlined. In that amount of time you would get only a brief overview of a lot of topics. My recommendation is to take it slow, take a class every year, look for a mix of private and classroom. But formats have advantages and disadvantages and each offers something different.

For legal discussion, situational awareness, etc. I actually favor a classroom setting. If the students participate the discussion can provide a more productive atmosphere. For pistol skills it is hard to beat one on one. Although shooting on a line with other people does introduce a bit of stress not present in a private format.

 

[cedartop]

As far as what type of class, I’m not sure exactly. Here is what I would like to know more about:
Physical: I want to learn about situational awareness, transitional spaces, and going from zero to deadly force with confidence.
Mental: I want to take a gun law class to learn the legal ramifications associated with defensive gun use.
Financial: I want to learn more about "carry insurance" (i.e., USCCA and similar).

Where: I would like to stay in North-Central Indiana (Kokomo, Lafayette, Indy, Muncie).
When: 8 hours or less on a weekend

I do follow the four rules, and expect other to do so also. I do not have any experience with drawing from the holster.

I am usually a pretty poor salesman, but your post really set me up for it. We don't shoot in this class but cover a whole lot of the other things you are talking about. http://paladincombatives.com/product/managing-confrontations-8hr-march-19th-2016-avon-in/

We are working on scheduling one in the Mishawaka area as well, but don't have a date yet.

 

[NarcoleptiCivil]

I know there is a lot to learn, and that the learning is ongoing. I guess I'm trying to get some ideas on how to get the most bang for my buck without sacrificing quality of instruction.

 

[Expatriated]

Fighting Pistol at Tactical Response is my standard suggestion for everyone on where to start. The other place is Mindset Lab here in Indy. They are not live fire but they are just as important. You will get a huge portion of your mindset requirement there. It may also clarify the direction you want to proceed in your training journey.

I agree with Yeager (and others) about the different distinctions of education, which many times those just starting out don't always fully grasp. Training, Practice and Qualifications (if you're a cop, military or have some course you need to pass) are 3 completely separate things. Training teaches you what you should go practice. Practice is not training. And qualifying darn sure ain't either one.

I have seen students' abilities really start to improve once they grasped this fact. It enabled them to develop a plan to get from their current ability to their goal ability.

Which brings me to Jackson's post, which is excellent. You have to determine what you want to learn, i.e. your goal and how committed you are to it. Do you want to just not get kicked off a range? Or do you want to get to the point where reacting to threats properly are becoming second nature? Or are you wanting to shoot for fun in competitions?

Starting down a formal firearms training path is similar to starting a career after high school--you start thinking about what you want to be/do and that determines at least in part, what you need to do to get there. There will be substantial expense for some parts, virtually no cost for others. A lot of mindset learning can be had from reading appropriate books at little to no cost. Practicing weapons manipulations dry cost nothing but time.

Good luck.

 

[Jackson]

As far as what type of class, I’m not sure exactly. Here is what I would like to know more about:
Physical: I want to learn about situational awareness, transitional spaces, and going from zero to deadly force with confidence.
Mental: I want to take a gun law class to learn the legal ramifications associated with defensive gun use.
Financial: I want to learn more about "carry insurance" (i.e., USCCA and similar).

Where: I would like to stay in North-Central Indiana (Kokomo, Lafayette, Indy, Muncie).
When: 8 hours or less on a weekend

I do follow the four rules, and expect other to do so also. I do not have any experience with drawing from the holster.

You have good stuff listed there. I don't think you'll find it all in one place.

You don't mention much about the actual pistol skills. That's where many training classes are going to focus. Since you don't have any experience drawing from a holster, I recommend you look for a class where that type of gun handling is the focus. In addition to draw stroke, fundamental "martial gun handling" skills like efficient reloading and malfunction reduction will usually be taught in a "defensive" or "concealed carry" pistol course.

I definitely have to put a big +1 on what Expatriated said about Scenario-based Force-on-Force training. This is a great place to build and test mindset, tactics, awareness, and where and how to start progressing down the force continuum. This can come first or second. If done first, it may give some context and direction to future training. If done second, having a base set of gun handling skills may make it easier to focus on the lessons and digest them. If the scenarios are well-crafted, the lessons will be many regardless of which way you do it.

You may find bits and pieces of the legal stuff in some concealed carry classes. There will certainly be elements of that in a well-done force-on-force course as well. Really though, if you want that you should consider a class specifically on that. Luckily, we have an Indiana attorney who provides just such a course. I'll link it below. I've not seen a course that specifically addresses carry insurance. However, that would be a question to ask the attorney.


Some course options in the Northern half of the state (in no particular order):
1. The offerings this year are full, but Boone County puts on a great two-day intro to defensive pistol course that works through basic marksmanship, gun handling, draw stroke, and other defensive pistol topics. I think it's a great starting point for martial gun handling. They also commonly host other instructors (Pat Rogers and Doc Gunn come to mind).

2. It's not a weekend, but Sand Burr Gun Ranch hosts Massad Ayoob with some regulatory. His MAG 40 class will cover the legal aspects you're interested in plus the gun handling I mentioned. They also sometimes host John Farnam.

3. For legal instruction, you should consider Tactical Firearms Training's Essentials of Indiana Gun Law course. It is put on by an IN attorney and gets great reviews.

4. Paladin Combatives (Cedartop posted about in this thread) covers some of the transition and escalation of force you mentioned. Not so much the when it's legal to do so, but the how it happens and how to approach it.

5. The Kodiak Range in South Bend also holds some defensive pistol courses. I have not been to any, but the course descriptions sound interesting. I want to get up there when my schedule allows.

6. For scenario-based force-on-force, there is probably no better place to go in IN than Mindset Lab. Expatriated already pimped them pretty hard. There's not much else to say except, I recommend them.

7. Sand Burr Gun Ranch also hosts Fortress Defense Consultants. They are apparently having a 1-day concealed carry course in May. I've taken a couple courses where their head instructor was teaching and found them quite worthwhile. They will likely be more in the gun handling and marksmanship category than in the legal and force-decisions category, but good nonetheless.

None of the above courses have any specific pre-requisites and will get you much farther down the path of learning self-defense shooting stuff than NRA Basic Pistol (nothing wrong with NRA BP, but if you've already selected a gun, can load it, and shoot a paper plate at 20 feet, all while actually* following the four rules, you don't really need it.)


*I say "actually", because most people who are doing something stupid think they are following the basic safety rules. I see many people who have poor gun handling, but don't even realize what they are doing. Safe gun handling is step one. My buddy and I watched a guy walk up range with his pistol pointed up range at god and everybody. My friend is on the range board and felt obligated to alert the gentleman about his total lack of muzzle awareness. The guy flat out said "No I didn't. You saw it wrong." He also felt it was important to mention that he "works for Remington". So even if you're an expert from Remington with years of experience, you still have to be consciously aware of what you're doing. Stop and think to yourself "where is my muzzle?" and then think to yourself "where is my trigger finger?" as frequently as possible.

 

[Jackson]

Double Tap.

 

[NHT3]

To my knowledge everyone that has taken this class has come away very satisfied. It will get you started on the road to concealed carry. Drawing from a holster and shooting is involved.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/parabellum-firearms-range/406279-gun-handling-101-2016-a.html

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Bright Firearms instructor trainee

 

[IndyGunSafety]

First of all, let me commend you on seeing the need, and having the desire to train. Owning a firearm is a lifelong learning endeavor!

There is no substitute for a good, formal foundation of safety and marksmanship. We see it all the time. People with "experience" come through our basic class and don't even know how to properly grip a pistol. Their ergonomics when working with either semi autos or revolvers are horrible. And safety? TERRIBLE! Muzzles all over the place, fingers constantly on triggers etc. Everyone wants to skip the basics because they have owned a gun for a while. I'm NOT saying this is the case with YOU. But in 90%+ of the instances we see this IS the case.

There is nothing more important about owning a firearm than handling it safely. We require prerequisites for our Defensive Pistol course because we care about our students AND instructors. If I get paid to teach our Defensive Pistol Course and spend 30% of the class correcting poor gun handling and marksmanship basics the student did not get the full value out of the course. IMHO, for your money, there's nothing you can do as a gun owner that will be of more use to you, you family and friends, and your community than making sure you have the basics down.

There are many analogies that can be used. But take for instance the guy that wants to learn to play guitar. So he goes out and buys one. He has a pretty good ear and picks things up quickly. After playing in his basement for several years, he decides to audition for a band. He plays well on several of the songs, but as they start to learn new material the band asks him to do things that only a MUSICIAN would know how to do, and a "guitarist" would not. (i.e. the sax player asks what key he is playing in, or what the 5th of the chord here is playing is.) There is no substitute for proper training. Our guitarist may do just fine, but his life will never depend on his skill.

Once you've got the basics down your options are nearly unlimited for training. There are many trainers on this forum and elsewhere, including us that can help you take the next several steps in defensive shooting and force on force training.

All I'm saying here is make absolutely certain you have not missed anything in your safety and marksmanship foundation before you try to move on. Remember, we don't know what we don't know! So being satisfied with a training course is not the determining factor as to its effectiveness. Good luck!

 

[NIFT]

Although I rarely respond to an OP seeking instruction, we are not that far away from you, in Fort Wayne. Rather than drone on and on promoting classes, I simply suggest you look through the website, and, if you see something that tweaks your interest, get in touch via phone or e-mail.
Indiana NRA Classes

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Rather than drone on and on promoting classes...

 

[NarcoleptiCivil]

Thank you all for the info! I definitely have plenty to get me started.