Travel: Purchase of Fire Arms out of State

[WebSnyper]

It's different because your STANDING IN ARIZONA when you buy the gun.

The NCIS is conducted at the 'physical' point of sale. If your taking procession in another state, and that state requires that you pass a NICS check (which Indiana does - your LTCH does not exempt you), then you have to pass it here (also) to get the gun.

Again, by the book.

I've already made my point, more than adequately. That being said...

Yes, I hear you telling me that it doesn't work this way in 'actual practice'... and I understand why it works that way... I'm just telling you what 'the book' says should happen.

First you could not take possession of a handgun in another state (it would have to be shipped to an FFL in your state), and second, the NICS check is not performed by the state, but rather at the federal level anyway. And yes, I know that an LTCH does not exempt you, but in this case that has no bearing on the situation really.

Since IndyGunSafety is an FFL in good standing, and has not been raided by the ATF, I think I'll take his word on the subject, as being both "by the book" and correct in practice, as there is no difference. If you are an FFL and don't practice what is in the book, sooner or later you won't be an FFL any longer.

And for good measure, here is the scenario on the ATF website:

ATF Online - Training - Firearms - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide Learning Theater - Out of State Transaction Transcript

Excerpt:

However, in the case of a handgun, the procedure is a little different. We must transfer the handgun to a dealer in Mr. Peterson’s State of residence, then that dealer will have him complete the Form 4473, run the NICS check, then deliver the firearm to Mr. Peterson. The local dealer will ensure that the transaction complies with State and local law. To determine whether a transaction is valid in a transferee’s State, you may consult ATF P 5300.5, State Laws and Published Ordinances — Firearms.

​

I'm confident that we made our points adequately.

 

[ATM]

Here's what you can expect, if you go 'by the book'...

...Again... by the book.

Again, by the book.

...I'm just telling you what 'the book' says should happen.

What is this book you keep referring to?

Cite it, please, I'm sure it would be good for a read.

 

[Wwwildthing]

NRA-ILA :: Guide To The National Instant Check System

What are the major differences between the original Brady law and NICS?

Originally, Brady waiting period requirements applied only to handguns. Under the permanent Brady provision, both handgun and long gun purchasers must be checked. Individuals with right-to-carry permits or permits-to-purchase that comply with BATF regulations and the permanent Brady law won`t have to undergo a NICS check at the time of transfer in most states. Another key change will be the elimination of the pawn shop exemption. Under the new system, a background check will be required for claiming a pawned firearm. A NICS check must be done when pawned guns returned to their owners after Nov. 30, 1998. Basically, any transaction requiring a Form 4473 to be filled out, will be subject to a NICS check. NICS checks do not nullify state laws. If your state has a waiting period or other requirement as a condition of owning a firearm, the NICS check will not exempt you from those obligations.

Arizona's 'Concealed Weapons Permit', exempts the (resident) bearer from a NCIS background check. Indiana's 'License To Carry a Handgun' does not. It is a 'given' that NCIS checks are to be done at the 'point of sale', which is determined by when the money changes hands.

If a Indiana resident, who is physically standing in Arizona, buys a gun - and the Arizona dealer completes a 4473, the buyer is subject to a NCIS check. The gun will then be transferred to a dealer in Indiana where the buyer may claim it. If the Indiana dealer completes a 4473 (which they will, as the LTCH does not allow exemption), the buyer is (again) subject to a NCIS background check.

Again, the key difference - Standing in Arizona (vs purchasing over the internet or by telephone).

 

[WebSnyper]

NRA-ILA :: Guide To The National Instant Check System

What are the major differences between the original Brady law and NICS?

Originally, Brady waiting period requirements applied only to handguns. Under the permanent Brady provision, both handgun and long gun purchasers must be checked. Individuals with right-to-carry permits or permits-to-purchase that comply with BATF regulations and the permanent Brady law won`t have to undergo a NICS check at the time of transfer in most states. Another key change will be the elimination of the pawn shop exemption. Under the new system, a background check will be required for claiming a pawned firearm. A NICS check must be done when pawned guns returned to their owners after Nov. 30, 1998. Basically, any transaction requiring a Form 4473 to be filled out, will be subject to a NICS check. NICS checks do not nullify state laws. If your state has a waiting period or other requirement as a condition of owning a firearm, the NICS check will not exempt you from those obligations.

Arizona's 'Concealed Weapons Permit', exempts the (resident) bearer from a NCIS background check. Indiana's 'License To Carry a Handgun' does not. It is a 'given' that NCIS checks are to be done at the 'point of sale', which is determined by when the money changes hands.

If a Indiana resident, who is physically standing in Arizona, buys a gun - and the Arizona dealer completes a 4473, the buyer is subject to a NCIS check. The gun will then be transferred to a dealer in Indiana where the buyer may claim it. If the Indiana dealer completes a 4473 (which they will, as the LTCH does not allow exemption), the buyer is (again) subject to a NCIS background check.

Again, the key difference - Standing in Arizona (vs purchasing over the internet or by telephone).

I think you need to read the ATF scenario I quoted. There is no transfer and no form 4473 performed in Arizona in the situation described, as the purchaser does not take possession in Arizona. A handgun must be shipped to the FFL in the purchaser's state of residence and then the NICS check is done and the 4473 completed in the state of residence with the local FFL.

 

[Jay]

Hell, I gave you the name and number to verify what you're being told..... USE IT.

Wait... are you an FFL dealer in AZ just trying to garner an extra transfer fee?

 

[WebSnyper]

After what you did, I agree!


I'd rep you, but I am out for the day. Will get you when the rep fairy refills by rep basket!

I got him for ya

 

[Wwwildthing]

I read your scenario... your dealer committed a violation (money changed hands)... my point stands, as written above.

As I said before, I understand why they do it as they do... but that's not the way it's suspose to be done.

Note to Jay - No, I'm not a FFL.

We're done here.

 

[Jay]

The BATFE disagrees with you. YOU'RE done here, and everyone can see why.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

I read your scenario... your dealer committed a violation (money changed hands)... my point stands, as written above.

As I said before, I understand why they do it as they do... but that's not the way it's suspose to be done.

Note to Jay - No, I'm not a FFL.

We're done here.

You have Indiana FFL dealer posting that you are wrong. You have someone calling the BATFE confirming that you are wrong.

Seriously?

 

[blamecharles]

 

[indykid]

I got him for ya

Thanks, still waiting for the rep fairy! I appreciate your adding a rep for me, and I always keep my word. Will return the favor to you too as a thanks, that is as soon as the rep fairy arrives.

Amazing how long a 24 hour wait is!

 

[BJMANIS]

according to CZ USA an individual may purchase a gun from the, but they require your ffl to fax a copy of his license to them and then they ship the gun to him on your behalf. you pay the transfer fee.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

I read your scenario... your dealer committed a violation (money changed hands)... my point stands, as written above.

As I said before, I understand why they do it as they do... but that's not the way it's suspose to be done.

Note to Jay - No, I'm not a FFL.

We're done here.

What?! There is nothing illegal about money changing hands. He could buy the gun there. It is then transferred from the AZ FFL to the IN FFL where the buyer goes to complete the 4473 and NICS check. Please stop posting incorrect information.

How do you explain people that buy online? You don't have to drive down to Bud's and do a 4473 and NICS check. You PAY for the gun, and Bud's transfers it to your LOCAL FFL where you complete the 4473 and NICS check.

I don't mind people posting their opinions, but this requires FACT and you are WAY off.