Trump testing the winds on gun control

[T.Lex]

I don't think the president has or should have the power to change the law which describes what is a machine gun. It's definitely a power grab. People were right to criticize Obama for overreaching his authority with EO's. A pen and a phone is not sufficient to overcome designed checks and balances. I think ordering the government to do studies and stuff seems within the boundaries of presidential authority.

I'm not sure if this is really a defense of Trump, but I don't think he understands the structural problem with his bumpstock memo. I think he thinks that, as POTUS, he can just tell an agency what he wants, then let them decide what to do about it.

And before anyone jumps my **** about thinking Trump is dumb, I don't. He's smart guy. But this is pretty deep governing-stuff. He doesn't know what he doesn't know. And, I don't think the people around him are particularly enthused about explaining to him why he can't do things certain ways that he's used to doing them.

 

[seedubs1]

Oh please. President Obama went through the same "shaming, harassment, and ridicule." I'm not a supporter of him, but he went through just as much. He was just a hell of a lot more professional about it.

One thing though. People have been mean to him since before he took office. No president has ever endured this kind of public shaming, harassment, ridicule. So his capitulation on gon control has nothing to do with people being mean.

 

[churchmouse]

Oh please. President Obama went through the same "shaming, harassment, and ridicule." I'm not a supporter of him, but he went through just as much. He was just a hell of a lot more professional about it.

And he had the MSM behind him to sweep up.

 

[seedubs1]

I think the main thing we're fighting here is the inventions that are against the "spirit" of the laws.

Bump stocks are an invention to get around auto bans. They aren't the same thing, but they do as much as possible within the boundaries of current law.

Same with pistol arm braces.

Both are against the "spirit" of the law. Both push the boundaries of what is legal by exploiting the verbiage of the law.

I mean.....seriously.....this is stupid:

 

[Kutnupe14]

I thought AG Sessions had already looked into the bump stock issue and advised that it would require a legislative solution and not executive action.

Lol, What makes you think the president respects AG Sessions?

 

[NyleRN]

Trump will try and EO the bumpstocks. Nolo on arfcom, a well known firearms attorney, has already stated he will file a federal law suit if Trump does that

 

[Kutnupe14]

Trump will try and EO the bumpstocks. Nolo on arfcom, a well known firearms attorney, has already stated he will file a federal law suit if Trump does that

I'll be surprised if he really does try.

 

[T.Lex]

His memo already explained what he wants the rule to be. As the executive in charge of the agency, ultimately he'll be the guy who gets to draft the rule. Hard to imagine the rule not saying what he wants it to say.

 

[Kutnupe14]

His memo already explained what he wants the rule to be. As the executive in charge of the agency, ultimately he'll be the guy who gets to draft the rule. Hard to imagine the rule not saying what he wants it to say.

He's in a pickle, no doubt about that. If goes after bumpstocks, the vocal right is (I assume) going to be PO'd. If he doesn't, and polling can be believed, I'd expect his polling numbers to drop to the low 30s, maybe even the ***gasp*** high 20s.
IMO, his best bet, is to have bumpstocks classified as class 3, endure the rumblings from the right, knowing that, ultimately, they won't abandon him.

 

[Fargo]

He's in a pickle, no doubt about that. If goes after bumpstocks, the vocal right is (I assume) going to be PO'd. If he doesn't, and polling can be believed, I'd expect his polling numbers to drop to the low 30s, maybe even the ***gasp*** high 20s.
IMO, his best bet, is to have bumpstocks classified as class 3, endure the rumblings from the right, knowing that, ultimately, they won't abandon him.

How does an EO make bump stocks an NFA item, other than by classifying them as machine guns? If he does that, there is no way around confiscation/seizure, which makes it a nightmare for him.

Going to be a help a lot more than rumblings if the ATF begins confiscation.

I seriously question if he thought through the Hughes amendment before putting it in writing that he wants them as machine guns.

 

[Kutnupe14]

How does an EO make bump stocks an NFA item, other than by classifying them as machine guns? If he does that, there is no way around confiscation/seizure, which makes it a nightmare for him.

Going to be a help a lot more than rumblings if the ATF begins confiscation.

I seriously question if he thought through the Hughes amendment before putting it in writing that he wants them as machine guns.

Since when have the legality of EOs stopped a president?

 

[Fargo]

Since when have the legality of EOs stopped a president?

That's not really my point, my point is that the executive order he has proposed in writing has the legal effect of confiscation. Trump was the one who referenced machine guns.

Legally, I do not believe he can do anything with bump stocks other than call for legislation.

 

[T.Lex]

The BATFE, as an executive agency, can go through the rulemaking process and determine that bumpstocks are devices that create machine guns. They are not really beholden to their prior interpretations on the subject.

https://www.faegrebd.com/supreme-court-holds-federal-agencies-may-reverse-their-positions-through

 

[Fargo]

The BATFE, as an executive agency, can go through the rulemaking process and determine that bumpstocks are devices that create machine guns. They are not really beholden to their prior interpretations on the subject.

https://www.faegrebd.com/supreme-court-holds-federal-agencies-may-reverse-their-positions-through

They can certainly reconsider, but I still don't believe it meets the definition, which is why I believe legislation is required.

 

[Expat]

Who cares about the silly "rule of law" when there are children to be saved.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

If Trump really does try an E.O. on bumpstocks, I will be pissed for a couple of reasons.
1.) The pen and phone solution to issues outside of presidential authority is crap, the same as it was with Obama.
2.) Not one more inch should be given on gun control.

I don't think an E.O. will fly. It just isn't possible to change codified legal definitions by E.O. Any honest reading of the law would immediately invalidate such an E.O. (not that I trust some of our kangaroo courts to read the plain language honestly). I don't think BATFE will be able to reclassify bumpstocks as machineguns. It is very clear what is and what is not a MG under the law. Refer to 26 USC 5845. If BATFE could find a grey area way to make them MGs, they would have done it under Obama. From a legal standpoint, the legislature will have to change the definition of machinegun if anything is going to be done, but that will be ugly and dangerous.

BBI has it right when he says that the bumpstock issue is very dangerous to semi-autos. How would the legislature potentially change the law to ban bumpstocks or classify them as MGs? Think about it carefully, the bumpstock is a simple piece of plastic - no springs or anything else - and your finger still pulls the trigger for each shot. This could turn into a real **** sandwich for gunowners. The bumpstock is ingenious in that it very clearly does not change the function of a semi-auto rifle...which creates a problem for anyone trying to regulate them out of existence and a problem for us because the legislature may just go full-scale stupid. Any language that goes after "potential" rate of fire will pick up semi-autos by default and language that goes after anything that increases rate of fire is going to be very ugly and sticky from a legal standpoint (for example, just cleaning your gun will increase it's cyclic rate...then think about match triggers, recoil reducing springs and buffers, weight-saving parts, etc). We could get really boned on this. We need to be proactive. Trump's recent comments and the NRA's comments following Las Vegas are not helpful. The republican governor of Utah (Utah!) is calling for more gun control. The Florida legislature, including a bunch of republicans, are looking at a variety of gun control bills. I fear that we are on our own and we do not have time to waste arguing politics. Action is needed - and you should already know what to do.

 

[jamil]

Oh please. President Obama went through the same "shaming, harassment, and ridicule." I'm not a supporter of him, but he went through just as much. He was just a hell of a lot more professional about it.

Just as much? Are you serious? Do you even live on this planet? Every moderate to left leaning news outlet, mainstream or not--which is most of them--is relentless. He is the butt of just about every joke made on late night talk shows. Radio. TV. Print. Internet. All day, 24/7, 365. Worldwide. It's in schools and the workplace. And you're comparing all that to the relatively few conservatives/republicans who ridiculed Obama? I am not saying that Trump doesn't deserve at least some of the ridicule. But you almost can't live on this planet and not notice anti-trump sentiment in a magnitude larger than any president has seen. This is not a defense of Trump. It's just a statement of fact.

 

[T.Lex]

Reuters reporting that Session now believes bumpstock ban is possible without legislation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...g-closer-to-banning-bump-stocks-idUSKCN1GB24W

“We believe in that, and we have had to deal with previous ATF legal opinions, but our top people in the Department of Justice have believed for some time that we can through regulatory process not allow the bump stock to convert a weapon from a semiautomatic to a fully automatic.”

They were given direction from the POTUS on the topic and appear committed to following through.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Reuters reporting that Session now believes bumpstock ban is possible without legislation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...g-closer-to-banning-bump-stocks-idUSKCN1GB24W


They were given direction from the POTUS on the topic and appear committed to following through.

I hope some good attorneys are planning to hand their asses to them. I know that Nolo (from AR15.com) is already at work. He is a well known firearms attorney and has stated he will file a federal lawsuit.

 

[cayce]

None that I can discern.

If I remember correctly it's 50,000 a year from Dr. MISTAKES.