Turbochargers: Am I missing something?

[ATOMonkey]

I have never had an issue with the turbo cars I've owned. I have no idea why people have problems with them. I know that one issue is short trips where the oil doesn't get to full temp. There is always water in the oil due to water vapor in the air, and water as a product of combustion. If you don't get the oil hot enough, the water never evaporates. Water sits in the bottom of the pan, so it's the first thing to get sucked up when you start the engine. Water is not a tremendous lubricant.

I don't know how prevalent that issue is, but the science is right. The amount of moisture/water in oil may be so low that it really doesn't matter.

The other issue is that some OEMs are just ****ty at calibrating a turbo engine. Subaru has been doing it forever with little to no issue. Ford is fairly good at it.

Everyone else... meh... I know that GM doesn't put a whole hell of a lot of time into their 4 cylinder engine line, Dodge's 1.4 turbo is made by Italians, and then you have the Koreans...

 

[JeepHammer]

As to the OP: If you buy it and it came from the manufacturer with a turbo, warranty and what not you know it was designed to run for the expected life of the vehicle so you're fine.

If it was aftermarket installed by a shop or owner than you should make sure it was done right...and never mind that warranty thing. When you up the power beyond design specs look for the next weak link in the power train that will break.

Correction:
The vehicle is designed to run through it's WARRANTY PERIOD.
Dealerships make MUCH more money on replacement parts & non-warranty work than they do on new car sales.
They also make a crap load on 'Extended Warranty' since so little is covered, turbos being 'Accessories' aren't covered.

 

[BravoMike]

If the engine was engineered to have a turbo, you will be fine and can get many miles out of them, even with a small engine. Many modern turbo engines even have a pump to recirculate coolant after turning off the car to allow for cool down. Also, smaller turbos don’t necessarily spin faster, that depends on the design and engineering. They can spool up faster, but not provide the same power output at higher engine RPMs.

The his question is, why do you want a turbo car? If you want extra power, just know there are many tuners/devices that through software will spin that turbo faster to make more power. Their lies the problem as you are stressing the engine/turbo and possibly past design limits.

 

[JeepHammer]

Church Mouse, have you heard the GOOD NEWS?

Have you accepted Trick Flow HEMI chambers into your life?
The speed god HEMI, and his right hand man Roots 671 or the left hand Roots 871 can relieve you of all your supercharger sins!


I screwed a B&M 144 on a solidly built 350 in a '79-ish (shoe box) Malibu and drive it back & forth between Florida & South Carolina.
(Marines, not dope running)
It was a former police car, had a 2.29:1 rear gear, and I screwed on p265-15 inch tires in the rear...
Don't know what the top speed was (broke the spedo the first night it ran) but no police car in the early-mid 80s could catch it.

Nation wide 55 MPH speed limit, and about 160 mph I found out why NASCAR has windshield struts!
I also found out why race cars have front air dams/scoops, it got REAL spooky to steer around 150-160.

I wound up with front mounted rack & pinion steering, lowered, air dam/ground effects, kept stiffening/limiting the suspension until I was only getting about 3* body roll total...
Too much engine & gear, and not nearly enough brains!
Keep in mind I wasn't running Parelli tires, I was doing this on 75 mph speed rated tires!
How I'm still alive I can't even speculate...

Georgia managed to get a HO Mustang behind me a couple of times, then I shifted out of THIRD gear on a 5 speed trans...
3.54:1 geared police cars didn't beat about 1.93:1 rear gear.
Slow out of the hole, couldn't do a burnout on dry pavement, but it WOULD go down the road.

Maybe why I mostly make corner turning suspension parts now, 1/8 or 1/4 mile in a straight line just didn't do it for me.
I always liked fast over quick...

 

[Butch627]

Turbos are happiest in engines that run in a small rpm range. Aircraft and big diesel engines are prime examples. Typical car engines that have a wide rpm range need a lot more safeguards as far as lubrication timing, and heat extraction. I suspect in the life of car turbos that overall cost and service A to Z over the life of the car will be quite a bit less for a normally aspirated engine as compared to a turbo.

 

[JeepHammer]

Turbos are happiest in engines that run in a small rpm range. Aircraft and big diesel engines are prime examples. Typical car engines that have a wide rpm range need a lot more safeguards as far as lubrication timing, and heat extraction. I suspect in the life of car turbos that overall cost and service A to Z over the life of the car will be quite a bit less for a normally aspirated engine as compared to a turbo.

YUP!
You have to do so much to control throttle jacking it's not funny.
Waste gates, boost dump gates, pop off valves...

Super chargers are MUCH easier, directly tied to engine RPM, a LOT less issues to deal with.

No split pulse exhaust manifolds (which plumbing is a major pain on both intake & exhaust) on SC, no waste gates, no trying to dump boost to prevent reversion, but it also dumps your boost and you get turbo lag,

I don't miss 30 hours of work on a pair of carbs for a full on super charger,
It takes TWO common carbs to deliver fuel FAST enough (time), but that's a one time thing,
And on the little 130 or 144 inch blowers like Church Mouse has, you can usually get one carb to deliver fuel.
Start talking an over driven 671 or worse yet, 871 and you will be out $3,000 on fuel delivery alone...
But then again, the 671 will make 750-800 HP, and the 871 will crank over 1,200 HP on gasoline with common displacement engines (not 700 CI 'Mountain Motors').

Keep in mind when you have 350-400 cubic inches and a 671, it takes between 12 & 16 common electronic fuel injectors to deliver fuel fast enough,
So you can imagine what it takes to get a draw through carb like a Holly to deliver fuel fast enough...
Which is exactly what we did, threaded the nose of Bosch injectors, 'O' ring sealed them, and stuffed 12 injectors in the street systems, 16 in the racing systems.
Like I said, some of us have been on electronic fuel injection since parts became available at the dealership in '82
And the real breaks came when EFI went from analog to digital, and processor speeds reached about 12 mHz.
Takes about 12 meg to keep up with throttle, air flow sensors, O2 sensors, manifold pressure sensors, etc.
The faster the processor, the more options & control you have...
The 3 bar MAP sensor was a gift to us, before that you had to guess at boost when you overran the Manifold Pressure Sensor.
Boosted engines lean out 3x faster than NA, so a lot of cooked pistons & rings.

Ever pull the oxygen enrichment handle on a blow torch? There you go! Same thing happens in the cylinder...

 

[KLB]

I have never had an issue with the turbo cars I've owned. I have no idea why people have problems with them. I know that one issue is short trips where the oil doesn't get to full temp. There is always water in the oil due to water vapor in the air, and water as a product of combustion. If you don't get the oil hot enough, the water never evaporates. Water sits in the bottom of the pan, so it's the first thing to get sucked up when you start the engine. Water is not a tremendous lubricant.

I don't know how prevalent that issue is, but the science is right. The amount of moisture/water in oil may be so low that it really doesn't matter.

The other issue is that some OEMs are just ****ty at calibrating a turbo engine. Subaru has been doing it forever with little to no issue. Ford is fairly good at it.

Everyone else... meh... I know that GM doesn't put a whole hell of a lot of time into their 4 cylinder engine line, Dodge's 1.4 turbo is made by Italians, and then you have the Koreans...

VW seems to do a pretty good job with theirs.

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

If the engine was engineered to have a turbo, you will be fine and can get many miles out of them, even with a small engine. Many modern turbo engines even have a pump to recirculate coolant after turning off the car to allow for cool down. Also, smaller turbos don’t necessarily spin faster, that depends on the design and engineering. They can spool up faster, but not provide the same power output at higher engine RPMs.

The his question is, why do you want a turbo car? If you want extra power, just know there are many tuners/devices that through software will spin that turbo faster to make more power. Their lies the problem as you are stressing the engine/turbo and possibly past design limits.

I should have said this before. My car is stock turbo, and the hate I see comes for STOCK turbo engines over naturally aspirated. I can actually totally understand hate for aftermarket stuff.

The biggest example is people saying to get a V8 F150 over the twin turbo V6

 

[rw02kr43]

I had a 2014 Fiesta 1L turbo. Turbo went out at 50k miles. New engine at 90k miles. Another new turbo at 110k miles. Another new turbo at 150k miles. Those were the big things. I also had problems with oil filters blowing out. O2 sensors. And overheating. I sold it in 2018. In the 4 years I owned it, it spent 10 months in the dealer's shop. I'll try to avoid turbos if I can and most certainly will never buy another Ford.

Jason

 

[JeepHammer]

I should have said this before. My car is stock turbo, and the hate I see comes for STOCK turbo engines over naturally aspirated. I can actually totally understand hate for aftermarket stuff.

The biggest example is people saying to get a V8 F150 over the twin turbo V6

Most of the 'Hate' (and horror stories) come from the early turbo cars, mostly 80s while the factories were learning how to make a turbo work.
Then comes DRIVING a turbo car, which you don't get an education on when you buy a turbo car...

If you want to go as quick as possible between stop lights, buy a supercharged engine.
If you ROLL on the throttle, and roll off the throttle, want a 'Zippy' car at highway speeds, then a turbo works great.
Just like anything complex mechanical, you MUST keep up on maintenance, but that's a no-brainer... (Or at least should be...)

Like Church Mouse said, his sister hot rodded hers, didn't change the oil, used cheap oil when she did...
Turbo failures...
My wife got 180,000+ miles out of her turbo car, but it got good oil on time, she was a 'Roll On' driver from driving my supercharged cars, so it lasted well beyond what even I expected.
Keep in mind she has a lead foot, but she doesn't throttle jack...
(She actually blew a cop off at 130 mph once, the state trooper didn't have a chance of catching her since she was only about 2 miles from her turn off, I heard it on the scanner...)

She normally doesn't drive like that, but she FINALLY got to pass a bunch of slow traffic, and then COP! Before she got slowed down again...

Nothing wrong with turbos cars, just learn to own/drive them... Like any other mechanical thing you use, learn to operate it.

 

[Sigblitz]

I would get an Eco V6. For warranty purposes, engines are tuned to 85%. Corvette is tuned higher than Cadillac or Camaro. Super Snake is tuned to the max but offers no warranty because there's no buffer. So buying an EcoBoost with a warranty, don't expect drag racing performance.

 

[russc2542]

Lots of things factor into it.

Diesels are engineered (at least the truck/commercial ones) to run 100% load for long periods. Can't get too detailed but engine break-in before R&D testing involves the words "days" and "torque peak".
Ever driven an NA diesel? yuck! diesels and turbos have a special synergy. They are not nearly as temperamental or sensitive as gas turbos to conditions or fuel quality.

Gassers are engineered to run 10% load for long periods and 90% for seconds for onramps and passing.

Gas engines run stoich (or near enough) most of the time and rich under boost. Many of the small turbo engines are touching boost on the highway.

trucks like the ecoboost F150 run near constant boost when towing so the mixture is rich. Buddy of mine at work's dad has a 5.0 v8 and another family member has the ecoboost. the v8 regularly gets better mileage when actually "using it as a truck".

Yes, having a power adder IS more moving parts and is more failure modes. It does make the engine more sensitive to crappy gas and neglect. Making more hp/liter does put more stress on the same parts. Most gas engines are designed NA first then beefed up for turbos hence some compromises.



What it really comes down to is that boosted engines (and turbos more than SC) require more attention and that's the anathema of the general population. Extended service intervals, long oil changes, lifetime fill fluids, 100k mile spark plugs... people have been convinced that machines need little-no maintenance till they break and then they cost to much to fix so buy a new one. Then people were handed a machine that's slightly more sensitive to treatment and maintenance... what do you think's going to happen? I've worked in a shop and I've seen what people do to a reasonably reliable engine. IMO turbos are good as a power adder, not a replacement for displacement for the masses. Whether it helps fuel economy or not depends on conditions and driving style.

 

[ATOMonkey]

VW seems to do a pretty good job with theirs.

I didn't leave them out on purpose. VW does a very good job tuning their turbo engines.

 

[ATOMonkey]

trucks like the ecoboost F150 run near constant boost when towing so the mixture is rich. Buddy of mine at work's dad has a 5.0 v8 and another family member has the ecoboost. the v8 regularly gets better mileage when actually "using it as a truck".

90% of the time (or more) a truck isn't used as a truck.

 

[russc2542]

90% of the time (or more) a truck isn't used as a truck.

Exactly. When being used a a single person or mom + a kid or 2 grocery getter, they work adequately. For the (now rare) person that uses a truck as a truck, the ecoboost does not work as well as the v8.

 

[Sigblitz]

I didn't leave them out on purpose. VW does a very good job tuning their turbo engines.

Long ago, I borrowed my sister's VW Rabbit diesel, standard shift, to go to mom's. I got a gas pump verified 60mpg, and it was a border line hooptie. I also hypermiled it to see what I could get.

 

[Thor]

Correction:
The vehicle is designed to run through it's WARRANTY PERIOD.
Dealerships make MUCH more money on replacement parts & non-warranty work than they do on new car sales.
They also make a crap load on 'Extended Warranty' since so little is covered, turbos being 'Accessories' aren't covered.

Read the warranty I guess. Depends on what you buy I suppose. My cars twin turbos are specifically covered in the warranty. I think you understood what i was saying about the design criteria either way; but just in case: A car designed at the factory to not grenade inside the warranty period is likely to be somewhat more reliable than one built in your neighbors garage.

 

[jkaetz]

My take is that the turbo gets blamed on current engines because it is "different" and "new". The reality is that plenty of NA engines failed prematurely as well. The real question is do modern turbo engines with modern oils (far superior to what was being used in the 80's) fail statistically more often than the NA engines of the 2000's. Realistically wide spread use of turbo engines has only happened in the last 5 years or so. Only time will tell if OEMs did their homework and left behind the stigma of a turbocharger from the 80's.

Personally I have a turbo diesel in the garage that my wife has daily driven since 2011. Full DPF/DEF/EGR emissions, she does not drive it any differently than a gasoline powered vehicle. It has cruised past 112k recently and while it hasn't been trouble free, it hasn't been a serious problem child either. Mostly regular oil and filter (air, oil, fuel) changes.

 

[avboiler11]

Exactly. When being used a a single person or mom + a kid or 2 grocery getter, they work adequately. For the (now rare) person that uses a truck as a truck, the ecoboost does not work as well as the v8.

You're probably the only person in the world that thinks that, given the 3.5L EcoBoost's torque curve & peak relative to modern naturally aspirated V8s including the 5.0L Coyote.

For the record, I own a 5.3L Silverado, but the 3.5L EcoBoost is a heckuva engine for doing 'truck stuff'. Yes, it gets thirsty when towing or hauling - you can have Eco OR Boost, but not both at the same time....

 

[churchmouse]

You're probably the only person in the world that thinks that, given the 3.5L EcoBoost's torque curve & peak relative to modern naturally aspirated V8s including the 5.0L Coyote.

For the record, I own a 5.3L Silverado, but the 3.5L EcoBoost is a heckuva engine for doing 'truck stuff'. Yes, it gets thirsty when towing or hauling - you can have Eco OR Boost, but not both at the same time....

My 5.3 equipped GMC just eclipsed 149K with zero engine issues and we work the truck like a....well.....a truck. I did smoke the transfer case in it but that was operator error/stupidity. No fault of the OEM. We tow/haul with it. I have driven a friend Eco equipped Ford and my personal opinion is you can have it. No hate for the truck by any measure but that little engine will not tow. Great soccer mom cowboy Cadillac but I will keep the 5.3 to tow.