Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[AA&E]

You can't remove 11 million people from an economy and not expect that economy to contract. Anytime you remove both production and consumption from an economy it will contract. There are no two ways around that.

You really are comparing apples to oranges. You keep talking about the efficiency of a stable economy while I am talking about the size of economy. They are not the same thing and the efficiency of a stable economy is largely irrelevant to what an economy of a diminishing size will be.

No matter what 11 million people you remove from the US economy, it's going to contract. When you pick almost completely cheap laborers to remove, it's going to contract even more.

You don't believe those jobs will be taken by American workers that will keep and spend the money here instead of sending it abroad? This practise impacts our economy as well.

 

[Fargo]

You don't believe those jobs will be taken by American workers that will keep and spend the money here instead of sending it abroad? This practise impacts our economy as well.

In a former life, I laid shingles and was later the foreman of a roofing crew. I also worked on a number of commercial and residential construction crews as well as for general contractors. Much of my time working for the general contractors was as a labor foreman running a crew of unskilled laborers doing demolition and other such work.

My current life involves me interacting with a large number of our "unemployed" male citizens, including getting to question them under oath about their employment and spending practices.

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is not only no, but hell no.

 

[Grease]

This is absolutely true. Hispanics send a huge amount of money out of this nation to support their families back home. This directly impacts our local economy. Overall, the cost far outweigh any potential or perceived gains. Personally, I don't see any gain for anyone except those coming here to take our a) jobs, b) land (when we aren't allowed to buy where they came from), c) welfare, d)run up unpaid medical bills at area hospitals passing the costs on to us, e) send enormous amounts of cash out of our local economy and to another nation, f) create the need for Spanish speaking teachers to educate their non-native language speaking students, g)increased expense due to elevated crime....

and the arguments I get in favor are who will pick our produce and clean Donald Trump's toilet?

absolutely truth!

 

[Grease]

Fargo, what you are arguing is like saying you don't want to cut out the elbow cancer because you will lose the hand....well, a body learns to adapt and the American economy and job force will do so as well.

you may work with a bunch of lazy scumbags but, I know plenty of young men that would take any job to support their families, hell, the Army has about 40,000 of them thanks to that POS Kenyan!

 

[eatsnopaste]

No we shouldn't just ship everyone off. However until we can stop the illegal flow INTO this country, we can't even begin to decide who has to be sent OUT of this country. Unless of course it's those damn Canadians..they all need to go home!

 

[Fred78]

The illegals have more benefits than our wounded soldiers and why this country is letting this crap happen amazes me

 

[Bigdaddybell]

The current laws need to be enforced. If you enter this country illegally then you should be returned to your country. The wave of illegal immigrants entering the United States is staggering. Especially from our southern boarders. I understand that there are arguments about the wave of immigrants that came to America during the 1800s and early 1900s, but that was a different time and laws have been put in place since then. These illegals are putting a unfair burden on our education, healthcare, job services. Why should those of us that can afford these services pay for those that enter this country illegally? I fortunatelly was born here and have obtained the proper documentation, education, pay taxes and pay into my social security. Now everything I have worked for and paid into is being pissed away by our government. I'm tired of all these social reform programs, WIC, welfare, etc that provide services to those that don't deserve them or are willing to better themselves to get off them. I understand there are people that truly deserve these benefits, however the system is flawed. All government housing and welfare programs are just putting a burden on the system. You drive past these housing development and see all the new cars that are being driven, knowing that the only reason they can afford these cars is because their food, housing, insurance, etc are being paid for by those of us that actually work and pay into the federal system. Sorry, Just a rant.

 

[Fargo]

Fargo, what you are arguing is like saying you don't want to cut out the elbow cancer because you will lose the hand....well, a body learns to adapt and the American economy and job force will do so as well.

you may work with a bunch of lazy scumbags but, I know plenty of young men that would take any job to support their families, hell, the Army has about 40,000 of them thanks to that POS Kenyan!

You don't have to cut your hand off if you just make it possible for the non-criminal ones to come work legally as guest workers instead of the ridiculous system we have now where everything is against a law that we choose not to enforce.

The current system makes it all illegal, but allows basically an under-the-table guest worker program because there is no way to enforce it. This gives us the worst of all worlds: no taxes, no legal protections, no buy-in, and no consequence for breaking the law.

I am awestruck that you know a bunch of young American citizens who would love to lay shingles and pick fruit for a living. Here is a thought, they still can do these things if they apply for those jobs.

I don't know the last U.S. citizen I know of that actually wanted to do that work but YMMV.

This idea that if we magically deported every illegal Mexican national tomorrow it would result in some sort of Utopian panacea is a pipe dream. You can't rip that big of a chunk out of your economy and not expect some harsh results, particularly when "we the people" have created a welfare state which encourages our own citizens to sit at home on the dole rather than go out and do manual labor.

The US economy is based upon a sub-replacement repopulation rate group of citizens. But for immigration, the US population would be falling. Ask any economist what this spells for the future, especially when you have entitlement programs based upon a positive growth rate.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

1) Deporting illegals does not exclude importing legal labor.

2) There are no jobs "Americans won't do." If you can find men to mine coal, you can fine men to pick a peach. You just won't find them willing to do it for $8/hr.

3) Before the inevitable "lettuce will cost $40 a head!!!" argument, BS, farm labor is a tiny tiny percentage of the cost of your groceries. I've put the facts and figures up before, if you care search for it.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

You can't remove 11 million people from an economy and not expect that economy to contract. Anytime you remove both production and consumption from an economy it will contract. There are no two ways around that.

You really are comparing apples to oranges. You keep talking about the efficiency of a stable economy while I am talking about the size of economy. They are not the same thing and the efficiency of a stable economy is largely irrelevant to what an economy of a diminishing size will be.

No matter what 11 million people you remove from the US economy, it's going to contract. When you pick almost completely cheap laborers to remove, it's going to contract even more.

In WWII we "removed" approximately 16 Million men from the US workforce, and our citizens still managed to fund and produce an enormous quantity of war materiel. In 1945, many of those men came back and eventually managed to find their place in the American economy. If you don't pay people NOT to work, they will find available work. We shouldn't be paying illegals either to work or NOT to work in this country; American citizens will pick up the slack (despite your anecdotal experiences to the contrary.)

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Fargo Salesman

 

[Fargo]

1) Deporting illegals does not exclude importing legal labor.

2) There are no jobs "Americans won't do." If you can find men to mine coal, you can fine men to pick a peach. You just won't find them willing to do it for $8/hr.

3) Before the inevitable "lettuce will cost $40 a head!!!" argument, BS, farm labor is a tiny tiny percentage of the cost of your groceries. I've put the facts and figures up before, if you care search for it.

1) Correct. Yet, I've seen precious little suggestions that we do so, much less how.

2) You and I disagree on how deeps America's "willing to do any work" pool is. This surprises me since you are an inner city cop. You and I both deal with tons of people who choose to sit around rather than work. Rural America, which is where the people you speak of still exist, has been greatly diminished in the last 30 years.

3) I didn't make that argument so I'm not going to respond to your "precognition" of what you think my argument will be.

 

[Fargo]

In WWII we "removed" approximately 16 Million men from the US workforce, and our citizens still managed to fund and produce an enormous quantity of war materiel. In 1945, many of those men came back and eventually managed to find their place in the American economy. If you don't pay people NOT to work, they will find available work. We shouldn't be paying illegals either to work or NOT to work in this country; American citizens will pick up the slack (despite your anecdotal experiences to the contrary.)

Sending soldiers to war vastly INCREASES demand within an economy; your analogy is inherently flawed on its face.

Deployment doesn't remove a solider as a consumer, it actually exponentially increases his consumption within the economy.

WWII pulled us out the Depression precisely because it dramatically increased consumption and demand.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

1) Correct. Yet, I've seen precious little suggestions that we do so, much less how.

2) You and I disagree on how deeps America's "willing to do any work" pool is. This surprises me since you are an inner city cop. You and I both deal with tons of people who choose to sit around rather than work. Rural America, which is where the people you speak of still exist, has been greatly diminished in the last 30 years.

3) I didn't make that argument so I'm not going to respond to your "precognition" of what you think my argument will be.

1) We do. There are even migrant worker visas. But since illegal labor is much easier and cheaper for both parties, WTF is trying to do it the legal way?

2) Why has rural America diminished? Lack of work at reasonable wages. As far as the inner city, people work. No one calls cops to their house to say "hey, look how we're not breaking the law and doing the best we can with the jobs available to us." I realize that. However I also realize that there are a ton of unskilled semi-educated people there, just like the hills and hollers, and that at least SOME of them would take the opportunity to make a decent wage that doesn't involve being shot at by their competition or having to work three fast food jobs. **BTW, the "War on Coal" is going to make that even worse for rural areas in many states.

3) You aren't the only one here. Every time immigration has come up, that argument has eventually reared its head. Just nipping it in the bud.

 

[Fargo]

1) We do. There are even migrant worker visas. But since illegal labor is much easier and cheaper for both parties, WTF is trying to do it the legal way?

2) Why has rural America diminished? Lack of work at reasonable wages. As far as the inner city, people work. No one calls cops to their house to say "hey, look how we're not breaking the law and doing the best we can with the jobs available to us." I realize that. However I also realize that there are a ton of unskilled semi-educated people there, just like the hills and hollers, and that at least SOME of them would take the opportunity to make a decent wage that doesn't involve being shot at by their competition or having to work three fast food jobs. **BTW, the "War on Coal" is going to make that even worse for rural areas in many states.

3) You aren't the only one here. Every time immigration has come up, that argument has eventually reared its head. Just nipping it in the bud.

1. I've helped people get Visas and I know you know your way around the process because of your spouse. Do you really think the current system is in any way accessible to an uneducated non-English speaker of extremely limited means?

2. Sure, you could get some people to do the work, but you are still drawing from an extremely limited pool unless, as you acknowledge, you dramatically up wages. Upping wages causes the prices of products to go up. The price of products going up reduces demand. Reduced demand causes reduced production. Reduced production causes reduced employment and reduced economic growth. Ergo, the economy contracts. This applies way beyond mere produce. This benefits virtually no one.

3. See 2.

 

[oldpink]

1. I've helped people get Visas and I know you know your way around the process because of your spouse. Do you really think the current system is in any way accessible to an uneducated non-English speaker of extremely limited means?

2. Sure, you could get some people to do the work, but you are still drawing from an extremely limited pool unless, as you acknowledge, you dramatically up wages. Upping wages causes the prices of products to go up. The price of products going up reduces demand. Reduced demand causes reduced production. Reduced production causes reduced employment and reduced economic growth. Ergo, the economy contracts. This applies way beyond mere produce. This benefits virtually no one.

3. See 2.

IOW, to hell with the law, just as long as we can get the cheapest labor possible.

 

[BugI02]

Beautiful ideas, unfortunately the Republican Party seems hellbent on thwarting any functional Braceros guest worker program. As to the latter, I would love to see our government stop robbing Peter to pay Paul to vote for them, but I don't see it happening.

Its like the run in football. They'll keep running that 'play' until we come up with an effective stop for it.

 

[Fargo]

IOW, to hell with the law, just as long as we can get the cheapest labor possible.

No, no and hell no. No where have I said to hell with the law. I've said that our current system, which does ignore the law, is ridiculous and the worst of both worlds.

All I have said is that the law needs to be changed to allow a functional guest worker program because suddenly trying to enforce poorly thought out laws that have been universally ignored for decades will cause an economic hurting in this country.

The status quo of feckless enforcement of feel-good draconian immigration laws disgusts me.

 

[Fargo]

Its like the run in football. They'll keep running that 'play' until we come up with an effective stop for it.

Sadly, historically the only "stop" for that play has been some cataclysm which brings a civilization down. We are so far down the road of voting ourselves the treasury that I don't see a reversal short of an upheaval of our basic society.

 

[BugI02]

1. I've helped people get Visas and I know you know your way around the process because of your spouse. Do you really think the current system is in any way accessible to an uneducated non-English speaker of extremely limited means?

2. Sure, you could get some people to do the work, but you are still drawing from an extremely limited pool unless, as you acknowledge, you dramatically up wages. Upping wages causes the prices of products to go up. The price of products going up reduces demand. Reduced demand causes reduced production. Reduced production causes reduced employment and reduced economic growth. Ergo, the economy contracts. This applies way beyond mere produce. This benefits virtually no one.

3. See 2.

1. I'm not sure I see this as a disadvantage. Have we not had enough of people who want to come here to take advantage of our economy but can't even be bothered to learn functional english. I have not researched it but I don't believe the Germans spend a lot of time providing their guest workers with interpreters at every step of the process. I believe those who wish to avail themselves of the opportunities must take it upon themselves to establish functional communication. It is a 'sellers' market

2. I disagree. You and BBI both have some elements of correctness but BBI has more the right of it. It's more than just wages that will turn americans away. They will not work these jobs under conditions that treat them like indentured servants as is true for many illegals. So costs of production will go up, but I think it would have more to do with job safety, actually having to carry workers comp, overtime rules etc. It is the money that flows to politicians to help maintain the profit margins of large corporations through lack of enforcement that destabilizes the system. Research some of the shenanigans centered around meatpacking plants in the central plains (company housing, company stores, advance warnings of ICE enforcement sweeps etc)

If we were to simultaneously attack our HUGE debt overhang by cutting entitlements to able-bodied recipients and made some of these jobs available under 20th century working conditions I think you could fill them. Especially if there no longer was an option to get paid for doing nothing. You might wind up with more of a WPA type system but we could attack our infrastructure overhang in that way also. It requires quite wrenching changes in business as usual, but isn't that what we REALLY hope the next election will bring us? And if we don't change, we wind up with wrenching change eventually anyway. I think everyone pretty much agrees the status quo is not sustainable.