"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

[ATM]

...We know that to use deadly force you must be " in fear for your life". Ergo it seems that most cops and courts would find that if you were well enough in control of your emotions and reactions to carefully place the third round to the head perhaps you were not truely in fear for your or someone else life...

They would be incorrectly defining "fear" to mean only a paralyzing or chaotic loss of rationale and control.

Having the courage and maintaining the control to react does not negate the element of fear.

The absence of fear when it is warranted would be more akin to insanity than courage.
Courage is simply overcoming these natural side effects of fear and managing to do what needs done.

Preparation, training and practice, both mental and physical, help to accomplish this.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

My academy class was taught NOT to shoot for the head...too small and it moves too much.

 

[esrice]

But try as I might, I am unable to find a documented situation where a law enforcement officer or citizen has accomplished it with a pistol.

You aren't watching enough movies then, George.

*** language ***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ


Hollywood aside, good thread. I pray that I might have the time and presence of mind to apply my shots with such forethought. Unfortunately I don't believe that will ever happen.

 

[Mosinguy]

What's a retired PA cop doing on an Indiana gun forum? Where are the mods?

Nice post mercop!

 

[drillsgt]

My academy class was taught NOT to shoot for the head...too small and it moves too much.

Same here, a head bobbing around makes for a difficult target even for experienced shooters unless they're nice enough to stand still. In all the courses I have taken I don't remember ever specifically doing this drill, not that it couldn't be done.

 

[Roadie]

You aren't watching enough movies then, George.

*** language ***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ


Hollywood aside, good thread. I pray that I might have the time and presence of mind to apply my shots with such forethought. Unfortunately I don't believe that will ever happen.

What?? But... but.. that's what we were taught in class! I'm telling Steve!

 

[mercop]

I guess my real point is to question what has become the way we do things. Every day is your last training day and there is no time to waste.- George

 

[esrice]

I guess my real point is to question what has become the way we do things. Every day is your last training day and there is no time to waste.- George

Point well-taken.

Its good to question the "established" methods as time goes on. We should always be asking ourselves "Is this still relevant?" "Does this still work?" "Is it still the best way to do it?"

My first firearms training class was with a high-dollar outfit where we learned Mozambique Drills and Failure Drills. I'm glad I learned them and practiced them, even though I later realized that such precision is highly unlikely in a gunfight. Like everything else though, firearms and training is a continuous personal evolution.

 

[Indy Wing Chun]

Just because ideas are tenacious, doesn't mean that they're worthy.

It's always good to examine things to look for improvements, especially in the face of new evidence (or lack there of).

 

[finity]

They would be incorrectly defining "fear" to mean only a paralyzing or chaotic loss of rationale and control.

Having the courage and maintaining the control to react does not negate the element of fear.

The absence of fear when it is warranted would be more akin to insanity than courage.
Courage is simply overcoming these natural side effects of fear and managing to do what needs done.

Preparation, training and practice, both mental and physical, help to accomplish this.

That's also why "fear" is not required for the justification to use deadly force. AND it doesn't even have to only be "fear of death" either.

The only thing required to justify deadly force is "reasonable necessity" to prevent "serious bodily injury".

 

[jrmdeputy]

The description given is a drill that is used during training and qualifications for law enforcement. The Idea is not to do all three shots in real life but target aqusition and stance. In most recent training the same sequence is used in a move and shoot drill. Again the idea is to be able get on target. The drill is designed to improve skills not that you would use this same sequence in an active shoot situation.

 

[mercop]

Yes there is the rub, the problem is that not all instructors give that caveat, and new recruits and first time citizen students are not going to figure that out for themselves. Context has to be given for everything.- George

 

[iChokePeople]

Some of Col Cooper's thoughts on the issue.

Jeff Cooper’s Mozambique Drill

 

[JoshuaRWhite]

To actually "practice" I draw an quickly fire 2 rounds for center mass. When I'm feeling froggy I'll double tap center mass then fire one at th head. I use Safety Slugs so if I hit them in the chest they are gonna die.

 

[Indy Wing Chun]

I use Safety Slugs so if I hit them in the chest they are gonna die.

Are you sure about that?

 

[iChokePeople]

I use Safety Slugs so if I hit them in the chest they are gonna die.

 

[cbseniour]

Here is what I teach. Having been involved in a shooting and talked to many others who have, some who are very close friends, I don't believe that during a spontaneous shooting within seven yards you can fire two to the chest, and then say to yourself he is not stopping I better fire a round at his head, or while you and the BG are both moving fire two to the chest and one to the head right away using your sights. Maybe it could be done if either you or the bag guy were standing still.

As I have covered before the armed citizen is not very likely to get the opportunity to "draw down" on a bad guy and issue verbal commands. It is more likely that their rounds will be fired right after they clear the holster.

I explain it like this- look at the human body as a highway with three exits taking you to Survival Town. The first is the pelvic girdle, second is the chest, the third is the head. If you concentrate on the chest, and the head, and miss your exits you will have to turn around.

Instead I advocate shooting one handed as soon as the barrel of the gun gets between you and the threat. These first rounds because of the rising of the gun will most likely first strike the upper legs and pelvic girdle. This causes what I call a ballistic ball tap. It forces the chest and head forward making your COM bigger. It may also allow subsequent rounds to hit the top of the head, behind the clavicle, and as they continue forward the spine.

This is accomplished with minimal training and provides the shooter with a better ability to move than rushing to a two handed grip which tends to glue them in place, or if they move it is usually straight back into unknown territory.- George

kUDOOS TO Mercop, this is some of the best advise and most reasonable instruction I have seen to date.

 

[mercop]

To actually "practice" I draw an quickly fire 2 rounds for center mass. When I'm feeling froggy I'll double tap center mass then fire one at th head. I use Safety Slugs so if I hit them in the chest they are gonna die.

 

[TMU317]

I am also looking for stories within the US of officers or citizens, after being trained to do so, actually fired “two to the chest, and one to the head” with a pistol.

Are you familiar with this incident? It did not occur exactly as the scenario you described, but the officer did terminate the incident with five rounds fired from his pistol.

"Koe kept moving, drew his Glock, and fired three .40s into the gunman’s chest, followed by two more to the head."

 

[iChokePeople]

The "Mozambique Drill" is a *drill*, like so many other drills. Drills are not created to try to pretend that a real fight (whether armed or not) will go exactly that way, but to teach you a skill, to improve something, to help you stop doing something, to reinforce something, to help with muscle memory, to get "reps". It's not magic and it's not sacred. It's no better, or worse, than many other drills, as long as you keep in mind that it is only that -- a drill. If you read Col Cooper's comments about it, he is very reasonable and logical. I don't expect a real fight to look exactly like "dot torture" or any other drill, but that does not negate the value of the drill.

One other thing that I think is sometimes lost in these discussions: people do not behave the same way with real guns and real bullets as they do with airsoft, simunitions, paintballs, etc. They don't ACT the same way and they don't REACT the same way. Sometimes I think we get a little hung up on the notion that because something works in FoF airsoft/etc, it will work with real guns and bullets, or vice versa. It's a great TOOL. It's a great way to test things and hone skills and improve, but everyone knows it's not real and they're not going to die. Introduce REAL guns and REAL bullets and everything changes.