Unburnt Powder

[shotbyspike]

I shot some .357 mag loads this weekend - 140 xtp +14grs of 2400 - and was getting some unburnt powder left in the brass. I had shot this same load the previous weekend and did not have this problem. Is this a result of not enough crimp? weak load? Please help.

I was shooting a ruger blackhawk 6''.

 

[sloughfoot]

Probably not enough crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die to get enough crimp on my 357 Magnums with Win 296 for complete ignition.

 

[Aszerigan]

You might also want to look at your primers. If you're not using Magnum primers, you may not get complete ignition. Also, isn't 14.0gns a bit light? Data on Alliant's site calls for over 15gns.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I shot some .357 mag loads this weekend - 140 xtp +14grs of 2400 - and was getting some unburnt powder left in the brass. I had shot this same load the previous weekend and did not have this problem. Is this a result of not enough crimp? weak load? Please help.

I was shooting a ruger blackhawk 6''.

2400 isn't the most stable powder when it comes to temperature changes, especially at reduced charges. Your combination of a light charge and any shift in temperature can and will affect your burn.

I'd suggest for those light loads that you switch to a powder with higher density to better fill the case. I've never used magnum primers with 2400. Slow burning magnum powders DO require a decent roll crimp to ensure even ignition. I prefer the Lee Factory Crimp die vs crimping while seating. It is no where near as sensitive to brass length as the crimp shoulder on the seating die is.

Something like 5744 might do you a little better - although it has always left unburned powder in the barrel of my .44. I contacted accurate and they said that is a characteristic of the powder and that it can't be fixed by adding crimp or changing seating depth or load density.

Bottom line is that , unburned powder or not, if your loads are performing as expected and you're not getting signs of pressure spikes, you're fine.

 

[Aszerigan]

Bottom line is that , unburned powder or not, if your loads are performing as expected and you're not getting signs of pressure spikes, you're fine.

First - a question. Are you loading these to .38 or .357 Mag pressures? I dial back the loads on my .357's to make them more fun to shoot. This is an important piece of info for figuring out what's going on.

Although Rimfire does know what he's talking about (he's proven this on many threads I've read), I have to disagree with him on this point.

There are plenty of powders out there to try, some are far more stable than 2400. For .357 Mag heavy loads, try H110 or Win 231 (if you can find it.) Win 231 is especially good in powder measures since its a spherical powder, easy measuring, no clipped grains. For lighter loads, try HP-38.

But certainly try magnum primers first. A bigger flash is going to ignite more powder on the primary ignition, and it may also reduce your muzzle flash. Since powder burns faster under compression, the more powder you get to ignite on the initial burst, the higher your velocity and the lower the flash.

If you're coming up with unburnt powder, something is surely amiss in your reloading. Its best to find out what that is and change it. Sure, you may not be damaging your firearm by shooting it, but you're not using your reloads to their optimum efficiency. Isn't that the point?

 

[G_Stines]

I would say that it could be any number of these. You might not be getting proper and full ignition from primers, 2400 is very sensitive to environmental changes, or it could be human error on the crimp. The only thing you could do is try to mimic it by altering one factor at a time and see what works out.

And I'm with Aszerigan, H110 is what I use for my .357. Definitely more stable than 2400.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Aszerigan is wise. I don't even think we disagree here. Magnum primers may solve your problem - but I've never loaded them with 2400 so I can't add anything to that line of problem solving.

Another question. How much unburned powder are you talking about? For instance - I run 20.0 gr of 2400 over Federal LP Match primers in a 23" barreled .44 mag. when i withdraw the case from my break action chamber and invert into the ammo box, it is not uncommon for me to get 2-3 granules of sooty unburned powder. When the box is all shot up and ready for reloading I just shake it out in the trash. I think that amount would be considered "normal". If 25% of the powder comes out unburned, that's an obvious sign there is a problem.

 

[shotbyspike]

Well thanks for the helpful responses. I'm using 14 gr b/c that is what I had setup for my 158gr loads and didn't want to have to go through the hassle of readjusting my powder measure. 140gr xtp w/ 14gr of 2400 is about as hot as I want to shoot at the moment. I readjusted by bullet setting die last night, loaded up some more rounds, and shot them today. Only had round that had any unburnt powder in it. It wasn't very much.

Reloading .357 Magnum Page

I used this website for my load data and they have 15.1 gr as a max, the same as the alliant website I believe, for 2400 w/ a 140 gr jhp. So from this data 14 gr seemed like a good starting to moderate load to work with.

Also from checking Alliant's website they have the min overall length as 1.56 and my manual says 1.59. How much of a variation can you safely have?

Thanks again for the help

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Unfortunately you didn't get a chance to eliminate variables one by one, but it appears you solved your problem.

I know the temptation to use second hand load data compiled on the various websites out there - but it's no substitute for proper manuals from your component and powder suppliers, and proper load development. Occasionally I'll try a load published in one of the gun mags without full development, but data off of old websites? I'll pass for anything other than historical reference.

 

[Aszerigan]

I readjusted by bullet setting die last night, loaded up some more rounds, and shot them today. Only had round that had any unburnt powder in it.

Also from checking Alliant's website they have the min overall length as 1.56 and my manual says 1.59. How much of a variation can you safely have?

I'm guessing that by readjusting your seating die, you got a more full (or deeper) bullet crimp. If that seems to solve your powder issue, then you've most likely stumbled upon the root of the problem. I'm still going to recommend that you try another powder. But that's just the experimenter in me.

As for your COL, generally the difference between 1.56 and 1.59 is going to be the length of the bullet. A heavier bullet may elongate your COL slightly. In a revolver, 0.03" (especially with a crimp) really isn't an issue, just make sure you never go under the minimum length.

Glad you solved the problem.

 

[shotbyspike]

**As for your COL, generally the difference between 1.56 and 1.59 is going to be the length of the bullet. A heavier bullet may elongate your COL slightly. In a revolver, 0.03" (especially with a crimp) really isn't an issue, just make sure you never go under the minimum length. **



Glad to hear. Usually my OAL after crimp is 1.585, and I get paranoid.

I'll probably use 2400 until I use it up. I don't want to shoot really hot magnum loads, so h110 and w296 I probably won't be using. Maybe Herco or HS-6, I dunno.

 

[WhitleyStu]

Burn rate chart:
Powder Burn Rates
You might try 231 as it is listed in the Speer #14 Manual as the fastest burn rate for 140 grain .357s. I never have any unburnt powder using 231.

 

[Aszerigan]

Maybe Herco or HS-6, I dunno.

HS-6 is a bruiser too. No such thing as a polite powder for a decent 357 Mag load. If you want to go soft, get some HP-38.

 

[lon]

-snip-
There are plenty of powders out there to try, some are far more stable than 2400. For .357 Mag heavy loads, try H110 or Win 231 (if you can find it.) Win 231 is especially good in powder measures since its a spherical powder, easy measuring, no clipped grains. For lighter loads, try HP-38. -snip-

I'm guessing you meant Win 296...my favorite .357 Mag powder
FWIW, Powder Valley has 231 and 296 in stock now.

Powder Valley, Inc.

 

[Aszerigan]

I'm guessing you meant Win 296...my favorite .357 Mag powder

You're correct. My typo. Good catch, Ion.

 

[shotbyspike]

HS-6 is a bruiser too. No such thing as a polite powder for a decent 357 Mag load. If you want to go soft, get some HP-38.

LOL, I wasn't trying to be a wuss, I have some HP38 and it was too weak. Whats the point of having a large .357 mag if you are going to just shoot .38 special. So far I like what I'm getting out of 14 grs of 2400. Is it the best, maybe not, but it works and it's fun.


Thanks a lot for your help. I wish I knew someone who liked to shoot or reload like I do.

 

[Aszerigan]

Whats the point of having a large .357 mag if you are going to just shoot .38 special.

Funny you say this.... I don't call anyone a wuss - ever. I know small men that shoot big loads, and big men that shoot .22's. I'm in the latter category.

But, I will tell you - that's exactly why people have 'large .357 mag' pistols: the option for shooting lighter .38 loads when they want to. Bigger booms turn heads, but lighter loads are way more satisfying.

The sooner you admit that, the better off you'll be.

Can I get a witness?