USAF Airman Killed in Wrong Address Police Incident

[firecadet613]

I saw. Saying "F" ALL police because you don't like what 1, 2, 3, or even a dozen officers have done is childish. But go ahead, write ALL 300k off...

It is indeed an officer safety issue but it has nothing to do with the peep hole and everything to do with getting shot. Standing in front of a door will get you killed...PERIOD.

"Officer safety" doesn't meet the reasonableness test as set out in the SCOTUS decision Graham v. Connor decision.

Officer safety isn't a bandwagon, it's a real thing that needs to be adhered to. Just because there are officers that don't follow it doesn't mean it's not important. Officers are human and when nothing bad happens to them, they become complacent.

Where did I say ALL?

It's a general statement when things like this pop up.

Standing in front of a door is dumb, cop or not. It's called the funnel of death for a reason.

Officer safety I have to laugh at when I routinely see they decide to stop someone in a construction zone vs waiting less than a quarter of a mile where the zone is over, the roadway is wide and motorists would have PLENTY of space to move away from the stopped vehicles.

Again, I say this as someone with family as LEOs and one who's passed the written and physical exam before I decided not to go that route.

Few tarnish the badge for many...especially when **** like this keeps happening...

When it's the wrong address and they take out a citizen for something many of us (or a reasonable person) would do, I'd think those wearing the same badge would call it BS.

 

[Destro]

wrong address

Why is this still being repeated?

 

[miguel]

When I think of public servants, first responders, whatever you'd like to label them, I think fire fighters are the only ones literally willing to risk/give their lives for the people they serve. Seems like that is a basic prerequisite for this kind of work.

We always hear stories about a fireman who runs into still burning house to save a kid's turtle or some old crippled person on the second floor. Fire fighters French kiss danger! And I mean that in a positive way, they are fearless! I never hear them say, "It's all about going home safely tonight, boys. Let that cripple guy burn...he's old anyway!"

But when a school is being shot up, everyone's waiting for backup, SWAT, etc.

 

[Rookie]

I saw. Saying "F" ALL police because you don't like what 1, 2, 3, or even a dozen officers have done is childish. But go ahead, write ALL 300k off...

It is indeed an officer safety issue but it has nothing to do with the peep hole and everything to do with getting shot. Standing in front of a door will get you killed...PERIOD.

"Officer safety" doesn't meet the reasonableness test as set out in the SCOTUS decision Graham v. Connor decision.

Officer safety isn't a bandwagon, it's a real thing that needs to be adhered to. Just because there are officers that don't follow it doesn't mean it's not important. Officers are human and when nothing bad happens to them, they become complacent.

While I agree officer safety is important, I also believe it's as over used as "for the children". A Terry stop requires an officer to believe the person is armed AND dangerous, but a lot of officers ignore one or both requirements because of "officer safety". It becomes "the boy who cried wolf".

Again, officer safety is important, but also abused.

 

[Ziggidy]

The only thing I can fault the officer on is opening fire a little too soon.

That one fault caused an innocent man to be killed, non-intentional but still.

If that was you or I that shot the policeman beacuse we were not certain, where would we be?

 

[Ziggidy]

It was an accident?

No

 

[Rookie]

That one fault caused an innocent man to be killed, non-intentional but still.

If that was you or I that shot the policeman beacuse we were not certain, where would we be?

Fighting manslaughter charges. We don't know if or when the officer will be charged. Too soon to tell.

 

[Denny347]

Where did I say ALL?

It's a general statement when things like this pop up.

Yeah, "the" = all, not "that particular" police. It was meant that way back in the NWA and that hasn't changed. I grow tired of generalizations and being held responsible for actions I had no control over.

Officer safety I have to laugh at when I routinely see they decide to stop someone in a construction zone vs waiting less than a quarter of a mile where the zone is over, the roadway is wide and motorists would have PLENTY of space to move away from the stopped vehicles.

Meh, that's why I leave the Interstates to the Staties. I'm not stopping a car on the Interstate unless it's REAL bad....lol...who am I kidding, it's not going to happen at all.

Again, I say this as someone with family as LEOs and one who's passed the written and physical exam before I decided not to go that route.

As well, I say this as someone with 27 yrs on the job, former recruit training instructor, instructor in UoF, Taser, firearms, Combatives, and Emergency Vehicle Operations. Currently supervise one of the busiest/most violent districts in the State.

Few tarnish the badge for many...especially when **** like this keeps happening...

It doesn't have to be that way.

When it's the wrong address and they take out a citizen for something many of us (or a reasonable person) would do,

It wasn't the wrong address, the 911 caller gave him the exact address, 1401.

I'd think those wearing the same badge would call it BS.

We are. We just used a video almost identical to this, in our current firearms inservice as what NOT to do.

 

[Destro]

A Terry stop requires an officer to believe the person is armed AND dangerous

False. An investigative detention (or Terry Stop) requires reasonable suspicion. Believing someone is armed and/or dangerous are not essential elements of an investigative detention. Those could be elements to a compulsory protective frisk for weapons during an investigative detention.

 

[Cameramonkey]

For those that think the cop shouldnt have shot, I have a suggestion. (and its fun!)

Go see the guys here. They can put you through the scenarios like this. See how well YOU do.

My safety team at church went through a session with them. It was outstanding.

LaserPrecision Marksmanship Club | VR Shooting Simulator Range

Experience the thrill of precision shooting at LaserPrecision Marksmanship Club. Explore our cutting-edge indoor shooting simulators, including virtual reality and laser shot simulations.

www.laserpmc.com

(for those familiar with Top Shot, these are the same guys. New name)

 

[Denny347]

While I agree officer safety is important, I also believe it's as over used as "for the children". A Terry stop requires an officer to believe the person is armed AND dangerous, but a lot of officers ignore one or both requirements because of "officer safety". It becomes "the boy who cried wolf".

No, a Terry Stop only requires an officer to have reasonable suspicion that a crime is afoot to stop/detain a person. A very LOW bar. A frisk/pat down requires RS that person is armed and dangerous. Stopping and Frisking are 2 very different actions. Although, the 7th Circuit just ruled that a frisk/pat down of a person (at the request of EMS) that EMS is loading up and transporting from a scene where police are present, is 100% legal for the safety of the crew.

✓ Reasonable Suspicion: Needed for traffic stops; brief investigatory stops, trash pulls:
“Reasonable suspicion entails some minimal level of objective justification for making a stop,
something more than an unparticularized suspicion or hunch, but less than the level
of suspicion required for probable cause.” State v. Campbell, 905 N.E.2d 51, 54 (Ind. Ct. App. 2009)
✓ Probable Cause: Needed for an arrest; most searches; search warrants: “the substance of
the definition of probable cause is a reasonable ground for belief of guilt and this belief of guilt must
be particularized with respect to the person to be searched or seized.” White v. State, 24 N.E.3d 535,
539 (Ind. Ct. App. 2015).
✓ Preponderance: More likely than not; 51/49; Mostly used in civil trials.
✓ Beyond a Reasonable Doubt: Standard for a jury/judge in a criminal trial:
“A reasonable doubt is an actual and substantial doubt arising from the evidence, from the facts or
circumstances shown by the evidence, or from the lack of evidence on the part of the state, as
distinguished from a doubt arising from mere possibility, from bare imagination, or from fanciful
conjecture.” Jackson v. State, 657 N.E.2d 131, 137-138 (Ind. Ct. App. 1995).

 

[Rookie]

I used the wrong term. My bad. I was referring to being frisked for officer safety. In my defense, I did half assed try to be more informed when I posted by using Google...

stop and frisk

www.law.cornell.edu

"A stop-and-frisk refers to a brief non-intrusive police stop of a suspect. The Fourth Amendment requires that before stopping the suspect, the police must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed by the suspect. If the police reasonably suspect that the suspect is armed and dangerous, the police may frisk the suspect, meaning that the police will give a quick pat-down of the suspect's outer clothing. The frisk is also called a Terry Stop, derived from the Supreme Court case Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)."

My point still remains that "officer safety" is over used and becomes less meaningful when it's the go to excuse to justify questionable actions.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

When I think of public servants, first responders, whatever you'd like to label them, I think fire fighters are the only ones literally willing to risk/give their lives for the people they serve. Seems like that is a basic prerequisite for this kind of work.

We always hear stories about a fireman who runs into still burning house to save a kid's turtle or some old crippled person on the second floor. Fire fighters French kiss danger! And I mean that in a positive way, they are fearless! I never hear them say, "It's all about going home safely tonight, boys. Let that cripple guy burn...he's old anyway!"

But when a school is being shot up, everyone's waiting for backup, SWAT, etc.

Yeah, because no police officer has ever lost their life saving/attempting to save another person.

 

[maxipum]

For those that think the cop shouldnt have shot, I have a suggestion. (and its fun!)

Go see the guys here. They can put you through the scenarios like this. See how well YOU do.

My safety team at church went through a session with them. It was outstanding.

LaserPrecision Marksmanship Club | VR Shooting Simulator Range

Experience the thrill of precision shooting at LaserPrecision Marksmanship Club. Explore our cutting-edge indoor shooting simulators, including virtual reality and laser shot simulations.

www.laserpmc.com

(for those familiar with Top Shot, these are the same guys. New name)

I’ve done this type of training, but not with these guys and it is eye opening. Still not an excuse for what happened here. I hope this idiot cop swings for it.

 

[KellyinAvon]

I can understand tensions running high on this one. I lived in Okaloosa County for years, stationed at Eglin and spent a lot of time on Hurlburt Field.

Keep it on a simmer and not a rolling boil please.

@Denny347 you've mentioned Nick Pollaro before. Just wondering if you hang out at his house... since he's my new neighbor.

 

[firecadet613]

Yeah, "the" = all, not "that particular" police. It was meant that way back in the NWA and that hasn't changed. I grow tired of generalizations and being held responsible for actions I had no control over.

You're correct, I should have said f that  police

As well, I say this as someone with 27 yrs on the job, former recruit training instructor, instructor in UoF, Taser, firearms, Combatives, and Emergency Vehicle Operations. Currently supervise one of the busiest/most violent districts in the State.

Thank you for your service. I lived outside 465 but inside Marion county when the "merge" between IMPD and MCSO happened. Total cluster and was the tipping point that caused me to leave MC and not look back. Our house was broken into and it took 3+ hours for the PD to show up. I was at work, but was able to get my brother and his crew in the ladder truck there lights n sirens before 911 picked up...

Indy is getting worse by the day, but I'm sure it's hard to be very effective with the current political winds.

It doesn't have to be that way.

It wasn't the wrong address, the 911 caller gave him the exact address, 1401.

We are. We just used a video almost identical to this, in our current firearms inservice as what NOT to do.

Good to hear!

Why is this still being repeated?

I was responding to my original comment, good to know they lit up the guy who answered the door at the  correct address. Regardless, he's still dead.

 

[Creedmoor]

I’ve done this type of training, but not with these guys and it is eye opening. Still not an excuse for what happened here. I hope this idiot cop swings for it.

It's a more modern FATS training from 25+ years ago.

 

[Denny347]

When I think of public servants, first responders, whatever you'd like to label them, I think fire fighters are the only ones literally willing to risk/give their lives for the people they serve. Seems like that is a basic prerequisite for this kind of work.

We always hear stories about a fireman who runs into still burning house to save a kid's turtle or some old crippled person on the second floor. Fire fighters French kiss danger! And I mean that in a positive way, they are fearless! I never hear them say, "It's all about going home safely tonight, boys. Let that cripple guy burn...he's old anyway!"

But when a school is being shot up, everyone's waiting for backup, SWAT, etc.

 

[Denny347]

I can understand tensions running high on this one. I lived in Okaloosa County for years, stationed at Eglin and spent a lot of time on Hurlburt Field.

Keep it on a simmer and not a rolling boil please.

@Denny347 you've mentioned Nick Pollaro before. Just wondering if you hang out at his house... since he's my new neighbor.

No, I've never been to his house. I don't really don't hang at anyone's house

 

[BigRed]

first responders

You are your only "first responder". All others are second at most.