USAF Airman Killed in Wrong Address Police Incident

[Frank_N_Stein]

We harp on our guys/gals regarding speeds. My shift is almost all rookies and they can be a bit heavy footed. However, as much as we beat it into their heads, THEY control the throttle. We find that things tend to slow down the longer they are on the job for. I cannot MAKE them slow down. I can only try to pass along my wisdom.

Mental health is only recently getting attention (nationwide as well as for LE) and many departments are slow to respond.

However, I will say, our Wellness Unit does a fantastic job connecting officers AND their families to mental health, financial, relationship, marriage, or addiction, services. If you come in on your own, it's confidential and not held against you at all. For so many years, officers were told to "suck it up" and carry on, only to find the damage began to manifest itself in various unhealthy/dangerous ways. I've lost too many friends to suicide here at work or they lost their jobs, their freedom, for unaddressed mental issues the job CAUSED. Dave Bisard was a coworker of mine I liked working with. NEVER showed signs of alcohol abuse. Was stunned at his BAC after his crash. He was one of the first responders at the Hamilton St murders (7 killed including several young children). Then not long after that, he responded to a Bank robbery and got into a shootout in the woods with the suspect armed with an AK. The department never cared if those things affected officers, they were expected to go right back to work. He became an alcoholic after these. He is still responsible for his actions but the department created that monster. Only recently, do we look after officers after these types of incidents. They are currently working on yearly phycologist check-ups, paid for by the department, just like our physical checkups are. I'm all for that.

Applicants get a mental screening currently, the MMPI and a session with a phycologist. It is HARD to really know what is going on in someone's head without many, many sessions.

Not to nitpick, but Bisard was at Hovey St, not Hamilton St. But I feel the same way, the lack of follow up by IMPD had a significant impact on the path he took and where he ended up.

 

[Denny347]

Not to nitpick, but Bisard was at Hovey St, not Hamilton St. But I feel the same way, the lack of follow up by IMPD had a significant impact on the path he took and where he ended up.

Ah, I was thinking I could be mixing it up. Thanks. Yeah seeing adults (2 of them) murdered is pretty much routine, but seeing the 2 yr old and 6 month old murdered as well with screw with the "hardest" of us.

 

[Creedmoor]

We harp on our guys/gals regarding speeds. My shift is almost all rookies and they can be a bit heavy footed. However, as much as we beat it into their heads, THEY control the throttle. We find that things tend to slow down the longer they are on the job for. I cannot MAKE them slow down. I can only try to pass along my wisdom.

Mental health is only recently getting attention (nationwide as well as for LE) and many departments are slow to respond.

However, I will say, our Wellness Unit does a fantastic job connecting officers AND their families to mental health, financial, relationship, marriage, or addiction, services. If you come in on your own, it's confidential and not held against you at all. For so many years, officers were told to "suck it up" and carry on, only to find the damage began to manifest itself in various unhealthy/dangerous ways. I've lost too many friends to suicide here at work or they lost their jobs, their freedom, for unaddressed mental issues the job CAUSED. Dave Bisard was a coworker of mine I liked working with. NEVER showed signs of alcohol abuse. Was stunned at his BAC after his crash. He was one of the first responders at the Hamilton St murders (7 killed including several young children). Then not long after that, he responded to a Bank robbery and got into a shootout in the woods with the suspect armed with an AK. The department never cared if those things affected officers, they were expected to go right back to work. He became an alcoholic after these. He is still responsible for his actions but the department created that monster. Only recently, do we look after officers after these types of incidents. They are currently working on yearly phycologist check-ups, paid for by the department, just like our physical checkups are. I'm all for that.

Applicants get a mental screening currently, the MMPI and a session with a phycologist. It is HARD to really know what is going on in someone's head without many, many sessions.

I agree, excessive speed can easily be curtailed with whats available on the open market today. Management just doesn't want to do it. I did the plug in through Verizon with one of my sons, you set up the phone and laptop to what speeds over you want to be notified and it just ratted him out every time. It was like 8 bucks a month. Money well spent. Get stupid driving a taxpayer vehicle and it should hurt the wallet and the career.
We have a huge problem with LE and excessive speed here in town. Like I've experienced Sirencide on a few occasions our small town. Doing 70+ in town is nothing here. It will end one day.
I also have a friend, we have known each other for 60+ years now. He been a drunk for well over 30 years. When he gets hauled in he always blows better than .30 a few times in the 4's. We had no idea until about 3 years ago with an accident, arrest and charges. Its truly been an eye opener for all of us in that circle.

Mental health is tough, add some of the personality's that often apply in LE and we get what we don't want. I do believe that we can do better than we have been doing.

 

[Denny347]

I agree, excessive speed can easily be curtailed with whats available on the open market today. Management just doesn't want to do it. I did the plug in through Verizon with one of my sons, you set up the phone and laptop to what speeds over you want to be notified and it just ratted him out every time. It was like 8 bucks a month. Money well spent. Get stupid driving a taxpayer vehicle and it should hurt the wallet and the career.
We have a huge problem with LE and excessive speed here in town. Like I've experienced Sirencide on a few occasions our small town. Doing 70+ in town is nothing here. It will end one day.
I also have a friend, we have known each other for 60+ years now. He been a drunk for well over 30 years. When he gets hauled in he always blows better than .30 a few times in the 4's. We had no idea until about 3 years ago with an accident, arrest and charges. Its truly been an eye opener for all of us in that circle.

Mental health is tough, add some of the personality's that often apply in LE and we get what we don't want. I do believe that we can do better than we have been doing.

We have GPS on all the marked cars and speeding complaints are pretty easy to investigate, we don't get very many though. However, setting up a auto-notify would be difficult with our agency specifically as we have probably 600 or so marked cars driven on-duty and off-duty, there just isn't enough time to keep up with. Each alert would need reviewed to see what was the run, what was the traffic conditions, etc. I've got 20-30 officers working at any given time on my shift and a minimum of 1 other supervisor working with me, sometimes more. Between homicide/shooting scenes, crashes, complaints, uses of force reviews, and all the other paper work we are required to do each day, I would have no interest in taking on more responsibility that I don't have the time to focus on. My Agency, as a whole, takes about 4k runs every single day of the year. That would be A LOT to track. Not counting all those driving off duty. Smaller departments, I might see that being useful.

 

[radar8756]

I can only try to pass along my wisdom.

 

[Creedmoor]

We have GPS on all the marked cars and speeding complaints are pretty easy to investigate, we don't get very many though. However, setting up a auto-notify would be difficult with our agency specifically as we have probably 600 or so marked cars driven on-duty and off-duty, there just isn't enough time to keep up with. Each alert would need reviewed to see what was the run, what was the traffic conditions, etc. I've got 20-30 officers working at any given time on my shift and a minimum of 1 other supervisor working with me, sometimes more. Between homicide/shooting scenes, crashes, complaints, uses of force reviews, and all the other paper work we are required to do each day, I would have no interest in taking on more responsibility that I don't have the time to focus on. My Agency, as a whole, takes about 4k runs every single day of the year. That would be A LOT to track. Not counting all those driving off duty. Smaller departments, I might see that being useful.

Well, I just don't agree.
It could still be done. And my opinion is, it shouldn't run on complaints either. It should be self cleaning and the bulk be done in house, with employees that do nothing but that.

Edit,
We have about 800,000 LEO's in the USA, Uber has about 1.5 million drivers working in the USA. Every Uber ride is tracked 24-7-365, if Uber can do it, every dept in the USA can do it.
The same was said with LE body and dash cams, with our small town of 4,800 all of our officers have dash and body cams.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I struggle with getting killed in the LE world is somehow different than one having a violent death with an industrial accident or getting ripped apart in a PTO shaft is not the same as being killed while in LE.
Danger is Danger, Dead is Dead.

It's no different for the person who has died, but for those still alive trying to mitigate the risks going forward, it's a major difference. A PTO shaft isn't going to jump up of it's own accord and try to kill you with malicious intent.

That doesn't make one life more important than the other, it just makes a difference the attitude/approach you need to have in order to avoid people getting killed in one profession versus the other.

 

[ECS686]

There was a similar case where Police shot a person that was not aiming a firearm. Remember the active shooter in Colorado a CCW carrier took him out and then for some reason picked up the shooters rifle. (Link below)

Granted the case was not volatile with one of their fellow LEOs laying dead probably 50 frantic 911 calls however nobody here knows what was relayed to responders. Sure we saw some lady saying some Bs but that happens every call.

So again LE training has set this and a lot of officers up for failure. I highly doubt they will be charged. The department will write a large check to the family as they are the ones that selected, trained and outfitted the officer to go out and respond.

Departments are worried more about DEI and diversity training than Cognative skills in crisis or use of force decisions!

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/us/concealed-open-carry-guns-police/index.html

 

[Denny347]

Well, I just don't agree.
It could still be done. And my opinion is, it shouldn't run on complaints either. It should be self cleaning and the bulk be done in house, with employees that do nothing but that.

Edit,
We have about 800,000 LEO's in the USA, Uber has about 1.5 million drivers working in the USA. Every Uber ride is tracked 24-7-365, if Uber can do it, every dept in the USA can do it.
The same was said with LE body and dash cams, with our small town of 4,800 all of our officers have dash and body cams.

Ok, considering this is my daily job, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Ok, considering this is my daily job, we will have to agree to disagree.

And I'll side with Denny. My company uses GPS monitoring on our trucks. LOTS of trucks. And it is manageable. But here is a key that you may be missing, Creed; standard commercial vehicles have no good reason to speed, LEO do.

So standard commercial trucks you'll get a speed warning on occasion when a guy isnt paying attention. But when his car is anticipated to speed multiple times a day ON PURPOSE and LAWFULLY, Denny and his cohorts would go crazy sorting wheat from chaff. They'd have to hire more staff JUST to track and figure out when it was a pursuit and when they just really needed that donut. So not only are Denny's team going to have to put eyeballs on the reports, they're going to have to distract officers and tie up their time as they are forced to justify every alert.

The only way it would be workable is to tell cops they have to follow the same speed limits as we do ALL THE TIME. (e.g. no more chases, that officer engaging armed and shooting suspects can just wait a couple more minutes for backup, etc)

 

[Destro]

every dept in the USA can do it.

There are agencies, in this state, that LEGITIMETLY can't afford to provide unexpired, properly fitting vests to their officers. Plenty more who go without 24/7 coverage, drive vehicles that shouldn't be on the road, heck I know agencies that don't have the money for proper badges.

These aren't communities wasting money, they are communities who get the short end of tax formulas. When you see your local PD driving in a new F-150, don't be confused and think every community has that kind of money.

 

[Brad69]

You big city people,

The Sheriff’s department drives Ram pickups and Durangos. They need them might have to go off road and need to get around in bad weather.

City has Chargers and Durangos.

If any of them would rip around without lights and sirens. The Sheriff or Chiefs phone would be ringing off the hook.

I mean they have real crime to fight.

 

[Creedmoor]

we will have to agree to disagree.

I can do that, Thanks for replying.

 

[Creedmoor]

There are agencies, in this state, that LEGITIMETLY can't afford to provide unexpired, properly fitting vests to their officers. Plenty more who go without 24/7 coverage, drive vehicles that shouldn't be on the road, heck I know agencies that don't have the money for proper badges.

These aren't communities wasting money, they are communities who get the short end of tax formulas. When you see your local PD driving in a new F-150, don't be confused and think every community has that kind of money.

I live in Alexandria, we have no tax base worth taking about except Red Golds distribution center. What towns/cities are these please?

 

[firecadet613]

I live in Alexandria, we have no tax base worth taking about except Red Golds distribution center. What towns/cities are these please?

Drive around the Indy suburbs or Chicago suburbs. Hell, Putnam County Sheriffs drive new Tahoe's .

Many departments have bountiful budgets and have nice, new patrol cars, along with the latest equipment.

 

[Creedmoor]

Drive around the Indy suburbs or Chicago suburbs. Hell, Putnam County Sheriffs drive new Tahoe's .

Many departments have bountiful budgets and have nice, new patrol cars, along with the latest equipment.

Lots of super modern Fords and Chevys in our PD and FD building and parking lots, not so much modern in the Water dept, Street, water treatment parking lots.

 

[Creedmoor]

And I'll side with Denny. My company uses GPS monitoring on our trucks. LOTS of trucks. And it is manageable. But here is a key that you may be missing, Creed; standard commercial vehicles have no good reason to speed, LEO do.

So standard commercial trucks you'll get a speed warning on occasion when a guy isnt paying attention. But when his car is anticipated to speed multiple times a day ON PURPOSE and LAWFULLY, Denny and his cohorts would go crazy sorting wheat from chaff. They'd have to hire more staff JUST to track and figure out when it was a pursuit and when they just really needed that donut. So not only are Denny's team going to have to put eyeballs on the reports, they're going to have to distract officers and tie up their time as they are forced to justify every alert.

The only way it would be workable is to tell cops they have to follow the same speed limits as we do ALL THE TIME. (e.g. no more chases, that officer engaging armed and shooting suspects can just wait a couple more minutes for backup, etc)

I stopped reading with...

But it did make me laugh.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I stopped reading with...

But it did make me laugh.

I know its hard to try to argue when your point is blown out of the water. Its OK.

 

[Creedmoor]

I know its hard to try to argue when your point is blown out of the water. Its OK.

I'm not locked into a paradigm that most things like this, can't be fixed.

 

[Denny347]

I'm not locked into a paradigm that most things like this, can't be fixed.

EVERY problem has a solution...in theory.