Uspsa cheating issue

[Grelber]

I think you're missing the big picture here. I don't really see how there could possibly be a "philosophical" discussion on whether he needs to be punished.

Did not mean to imply that action should not be taken, just seemed like a good idea to step back & look at the big picture stuff, which it appears to you that I am not doing and it appears to me that you aren't .

In any case I do not have a dog in the fight so if others feel that this is a case of punishment fitting crime and not lynch mob then perhaps I am looking at things wrong & aok.

 

[rvb]

even if we forget our opinions of what the punishment should/shouldnt be, HQ has ruled he shouldn't shoot uspsa any more. If they were ok w/ him just shooting L1 matches, they would have just cancelled his membership. Now he is on the super-secret probation list. How do they expect to enforce that?

BTW, I've heard stories over the years of other people who are on the super secret list... incl folks who've done things like throw loaded guns at the backstop in their frustration over their performance. If it's a safety issue vs 'just' a cheating issue, shouldn't 'we' know that and be able to turn them away at registration??

otherwise a tree just fell in the forest an no one was around to hear it....

but then again, it appears "official" communication channels are being used to promote idpa matches, and doodie is being used to communicate to the membership....

-rvb

 

[cschwanz]

It would be nice to have access to that list, ESPECIALLY if people are on it for safety concerns. How are we to know at a lvl 1 match if someone has been put on it for previous issues. Level 2 and beyond you have to be a valid USPSA member to shoot, so its no problem but we have multiple non-uspsa members that shoot our matches every month. How do we know who shouldnt be there?

 

[Grelber]

even if we take our opinions of what the punishment should/shouldnt be, HQ has ruled he shouldn't shoot uspsa any more. If they were ok w/ him just shooting L1 matches, they would have just cancelled his membership. Now he is on the super-secret probation list. How do they expect to enforce that?

but then again, it appears "official" communication channels are being used to promote idpa matches, and doodie is being used to communicate to the membership....

-rvb

Fair point.

I don't read doodie ,so, whatever .

 

[rvb]

I don't read doodie ,so, whatever .

Many dont, so that's why I passed along the message from the USPSA President... since communication is happening via doodie and via other Facebook pages rather than the official USPSA website, facbook page, or emails. Gotta branch out to stay informed...


-rvb

 

[rhino]

Many dont, so that's why I passed along the message from the USPSA President... since communication is happening via doodie and via other Facebook pages rather than the official USPSA website, facbook page, or emails. Gotta branch out to stay informed...


-rvb

It's noteworthy that an organization's leadership chooses to communicate such information with the membership via Facebook and some website with the name "doodie." Given that USPSA has their own web site and forums, there is no excuse for that. It's unprofessional to say the least.

I am happy to see that he has chosen to ban the guy for life, though. Even if it's not enforceable, at least he went through the motions.

 

[jakemartens]

I have had ZERO communication about any of this, nothing from USPSA, nothing from our Area Director Kyle Farris.

They have chosen to not send out anything directly to the membership, nothing to any certified RO's about what took place and how to handle people asking to see their times
no directions on how to answer questions if directed to match directors or Section Coordinators

instead there have 2...only 2 "releases" from our current USPSA President on this and neither were released directly to the membership, or thru USPSA owned and operated media outlets
the one RVB posted and
This one that was sent to Ben Stoeger to post
Quote

USPSA has recently been presented with information regarding alleged misrepresentations of shooters’ stage times during major matches. Currently, the accused Range Officer has had his RO duties suspended by NROI. We take these allegations seriously, and we will do everything within our power to review the facts and come to a fair and equitable decision.​

Quote

Not only does USPSA expect its certified Range Officials to maintain integrity and honesty while volunteering at these events, we also expect our members to exercise discretion and diplomacy during our investigation. Public character assassinations and threats will not be tolerated and will be addressed by me personally. This type of behavior can effect as much damage to USPSA as the dishonest actions of a match official, and I will do what is necessary to ensure that our organization is protected.



We are paying these people money, Phil get $50k a year and travel expenses to go and shoot matches
John Amidon get's at least $55K a year (probably more after all the years he has been VP and DNRIO)
Kim Williams $90-100K a year

Troy McManus has a contract has the Club Liason for an undisclosed amount of money
we pay to have the website and web forum managed by a third party

and we can't even get any of them to release an official statement to the members when something like this is going on

Area Directors get a reimbursed travel budget of up to $2000 a year to travel to matches and shoot them

I think that there are better ways to communicate with the membership for what we are paying for

​

 

[jakemartens]

Chuck Anderson I didn't phrase it quite that way. My take on that, for what it's worth. I could have come up with a. Few outcomes. I'll focus on Rob since the rest are pretty clear with the same reasoning. There's plenty of evidence that his times were altered and he benefitted from that. But just like an RO who scores an Alpha Mike as a two Alpha while the shooter is back loading mags, if you don't know, is it your fault.

I talked to several people who spoke to Rob's integrity, beyond just what I would expect of the average shooter. There was no evidence of a quid pro quo. There was no video of Rob checking the timer after a run. Rob shot with his kid all the time. His kid even got +2'd by Paul.

I also talked to Rob for awhile. We went through the info I had and tried to come up with an explanation. We couldn't. But I also didn't get a sense he was holding out like I did when I talked to Paul.

The best evidence I have that Rod didn't know is the videos themselves. First, he didn't take them down. Sure it wouldn't have made a difference because people had already saved them, but he didn't know. Rob also has at least some rudimentary video editing skills. If he knew the RO times were wrong why not just edit them out. I do that on my videos already. Not because I'm hiding anything, I just don't want to sit through the ULSC sequence half a dozen times. Admittedly it still might have been discovered, but it would have been much harder.

The biggest thing is knowledge of how conspiracies work. The more people that know the more likely they are to be discovered. Also after talking to Paul I came away with the impression that he feels a lot of guilt over it. That's not the type of things you brag to your buddies about.

Do I know for a fact that Rob didn't know? No. I wish I did but I don't. But I also don't know that Ben Stoeger didn't knowingly cheat. I have absolutely no reason to believe he did and lots of reasons to believe he didn't. But I still can't say 100%. There certainly isn't enough to show anyone other that Paul knew. And I'm completely comfortable with saying Rob didn't.