USPSA rulebook discussion

[Grelber]

The perf's were not lined up (bad target placement), so the call was "C", No-shoot.

I can see "incorrect" target placement on a classifier (there is no "bad" placement and we should all get trophies and maybe a little more roughage now and then (see post 112)) , but I'm guessing that on a field course targets are placed the way targets are placed and that is aok?

 

[riverman67]

Probably better than we do at giving up on an argument.



If somebody gave your timer to an olympic runner you would chase him until you got it back.

Not a chance in hell

 

[rvb]

I recently had this discussion about back up guns on level 2/3 matches. As long as you included the back up gun in chrono and passes the inspection for the division you're shoooting, you're good to go regardless if the gun is of different platform/make right? Example, I'm shooting production with a hammer gun, my back up is striker fired.

5.1.7
the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied [is division legal, no advantage, chrono'd]

 

[rvb]

If a shooter goes through the unload and show clear process and does not wait for me to say all of it and I am seeing it all happen. I don't care. If I see the hammer go down. I do not make someone go back and show me the chamber was clear. I know it was because the hammer dropped. If it was not clear at the point we would be calling the RM for the DQ. My level of being satisfied is different that some.

All the points about rushing through USC are duly noted and agree with.

I might add if as the RO I was not watching the shooters gun through USC; what was I doing? My job is to watch the gun.

I agree w/ this. The shooter "must" "show clear," and I should be watching him clear the gun and drop the hammer. if the gun isn't clear, it's on him/her. The couple of times I asked a shooter to do-over, *I* was not in position to see the clearing (stage ended in an RO trap for instance, where walls or whatever force you onto the wrong side of the shooter. If I can't see it get cleared or see that the trigger was pulled (vs a decocker, etc), then I'll command a do-over.

As a shooter, I empty the gun and SHOW clear. I lock the slide back (or hold it back for my open gun) and hold it where the RO can see it. I see no reason to rush the process for reasons given above. Gives me a second to mentally regroup and really be sure I see an empty chamber and that I got the mag out.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

I can see "incorrect" target placement on a classifier (there is no "bad" placement and we should all get trophies and maybe a little more roughage now and then (see post 112)) , but I'm guessing that on a field course targets are placed the way targets are placed and that is aok?

I try to avoid overlapping perfs. Only on classifiers should we have these problems.

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

To make a proper determination we need a better picture. Not one from 25 yards.

Had to pull a pic from the web as an example. And as for geting the picture, I described it.

 

[rvb]

As a shooter, I empty the gun and SHOW clear. I lock the slide back (or hold it back for my open gun) and hold it where the RO can see it. I see no reason to rush the process for reasons given above. Gives me a second to mentally regroup and really be sure I see an empty chamber and that I got the mag out.

-rvb

ha. reminds me of a time I was shooting, and the RO's attention was not at all on the job. after a couple stages of clearing the gun w/o complete commands and people assuming the range was clear, I decided to stand there after ULSC, showing an empty chamber, for about 2 full minutes while he chatted with his buddies, until he realized I was waiting on the holster command... he never get the point...

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

I agree w/ this. The shooter "must" "show clear," and I should be watching him clear the gun and drop the hammer. if the gun isn't clear, it's on him/her. The couple of times I asked a shooter to do-over, *I* was not in position to see the clearing (stage ended in an RO trap for instance, where walls or whatever force you onto the wrong side of the shooter. If I can't see it get cleared or see that the trigger was pulled (vs a decocker, etc), then I'll command a do-over.

As a shooter, I empty the gun and SHOW clear. I lock the slide back (or hold it back for my open gun) and hold it where the RO can see it. I see no reason to rush the process for reasons given above. Gives me a second to mentally regroup and really be sure I see an empty chamber and that I got the mag out.

-rvb

The thing that is tough for me to get my head around is the inconsistency.

"he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the range officer" 8.3.6

Seems like must means must when folks want must to mean must but it means 'nah this other way is fine' when folks don't want to follow along according to hoyle.

Not written to wrankle, I guess I'm just more digital than analog.

 

[riverman67]

The thing that is tough for me to get my head around is the inconsistency.

"he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the range officer" 8.3.6

Seems like must means must when folks want must to mean must but it means 'nah this other way is fine' when folks don't want to follow along according to hoyle.

Not written to wrankle, I guess I'm just more digital than analog.

I prefer to see an Mt chamber and I look for it. Some shooters don't wait for the commands, if they don't and have already dropped the hammer and holstered. I'm not going to make them go through it again.
If I saw all the steps happen and I'm certain the gun is clear, I feel I'm just being a Dick by forcing a do over.
That being said I have seen a few speedy folks that thought they dropped their mag and dqd in to the wall in front of them before I could say stop.
That is a crappie way to end your day

 

[rvb]

The thing that is tough for me to get my head around is the inconsistency.

"he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the range officer" 8.3.6

Seems like must means must when folks want must to mean must but it means 'nah this other way is fine' when folks don't want to follow along according to hoyle.

Not written to wrankle, I guess I'm just more digital than analog.

you're correct per letter of the law.
then there's real world of RO'ing...
Job of an RO is 1) safety, 2) fairness and 3) Don't be a D*. If the shooter has already dropped the hammer and thrown the gun in the holster while I'm still saying "if finished, unlo..." then I should have been watching his actions while giving the command AND if he didn't DQ w/ an AD we know the gun is empty, so #1 safety is met. It doesn't affect #2 fairness in any way. Do we're back to #3 DBAD.

Also, while the rule is a "must," for a rule to be useful it has to have a penalty for violation. In this case, the only penalty is DQ under 10.6.1. In the words of Ron Burgundy, "well, that escalated quickly!" haha.

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

I prefer to see an Mt chamber and I look for it. Some shooters don't wait for the commands, if they don't and have already dropped the hammer and holstered. I'm not going to make them go through it again.
If I saw all the steps happen and I'm certain the gun is clear, I feel I'm just being a Dick by forcing a do over.

No issue with your process (or anybody else's).

The principles are challenging for me to grasp. There are several notes about how sloppy it is not to use correct english for range commands, and there was the thing about the horrors of asking somebody to indicate ready, I agree that perfection should be pursued. On the other hand there is what seems like a very clear and mandatory safety process, but nobody is strict about following it and that is apparently completely aok. Just tough to get in line with priorities.

 

[Grelber]

you're correct per letter of the law.
then there's real world of RO'ing...
Job of an RO is 1) safety,

Seems like that would sort of be the end of it then. Mandatory safety procedure = do it. Since I am seeing this different than everyone else that is a good sign that I am wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwdba9C2G14

 

[rvb]

The principles are challenging for me to grasp. There are several notes about how sloppy it is not to use correct english for range commands, and there was the thing about the horrors of asking somebody to indicate ready, I agree that perfection should be pursued. On the other hand there is what seems like a very clear and mandatory safety process, but nobody is strict about following it and that is apparently completely aok. Just tough to get in line with priorities.

Job of an RO is 1) safety, 2) fairness and 3) Don't be a D*.
-rvb

range commands, requiring indicating ready, all relate to #2 fairness. We want every shooter to be treated the same, not have their routine rattled by having to figure out what the range command is asking of him, etc. To screw with a shooter who's trying to focus on the stage by saying "nod when you're ready" or waiting forever on some indication isn't fair. it also violates #3 if the RO insists on it out of some authority complex or won't change his ways when told vs just confusion over the rules.

On this topic, if you were watching the gun while they unloaded and pulled the trigger, didn't they show it to you? ok, they didn't "present it for inspection" as 8.3.6 says... but by asking for do-overs, are you really making the range safer? Similar to the above, whether #3 is violated depends on whether you're doing it for some authority complex or whether you really didn't see the gun being made safe and need a do-over. As I said above, I've asked for a do-over on occasion when I couldn't see the gun get cleared.

This also may be an experience thing. After ROing thousands of shooters, it becomes easier to watch what's important, while still regurgitating the commands. Newer ROs may have trouble processing everything happening if the shooter gets ahead of the commands; ahead of where they are mentally.

IMO, ultimately if you don't feel comfortable with the condition of the gun or safety of the range, you're the boss. But don't just hassle the shooter and possibly create tense situations over it (yes, I've seen tempers flair over it) because they didn't do what they "must."

I like making snide comments like "chicks dig guys who can put it away fast."

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

I feel I'm just being a Dick by forcing a do over.

then there's real world of RO'ing...

Oh, for what it is worth, like a lot of people I started out in steels & IDPA. That is still what is shot at the two closest clubs so I normally end up attending & more often than not they need me to run or help run a squad.

I have never been to one of those matches, or higher level IDPA matches, where I wasn't required to show clear, and I have never detected any resentment when I asked a shooter to show clear a second time if I did not get a good view the first time.

The doing really is not any issue at all.

PS - IT IS TIME FOR ME TO ACCEPT WHAT IS AND GO ALONG WITH THE FLOW - THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE !! (but if I accidentally say range is safe and somebody gets all weird I am going to look at them funny).

 

[cakelly1962]

My instance of having a shooter unholster was because he ran so fast I did not see the gun to be completely confident that the hammer was dropped. So to keep everyone safe I made him usc.

 

[rvb]

I have never been to one of those matches, or higher level IDPA matches, where I wasn't required to show clear, and I have never detected any resentment when I asked a shooter to show clear a second time if I did not get a good view the first time.

what can I say, different cultures. It's been almost a decade since I've shot idpa, but IIRC an AD during ULSC wasn't a DQ, so making the gun safe was completely the SO's responsibility vs the shooter's. If a shooter AD'd during hammer-down, oops, the SO screwed up.

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

My instance of having a shooter unholster was because he ran so fast I did not see the gun to be completely confident that the hammer was dropped.

Reminds me, there are a couple folks locally that like to use the decocker to drop the hammer (CZ's & Sigs, don't know about others) . I hate that. Tends to also scare the crap out of me on make ready.

 

[rvb]

Reminds me, there are a couple folks locally that like to use the decocker to drop the hammer (CZ's & Sigs, don't know about others) . I hate that. Tends to also scare the crap out of me on make ready.

On Make Ready or Hammer Down and Holster? it's correct for the first, not for the second (there's an instance where I make them do it again by pulling the trigger).
I prefer it on Make Ready. then I know the gun is in the right start condition w/ having to watch really close for the hammer to be off the half-cock, and it's safer. But then, I spent years shooting a DA gun w/ a decocker...

-rvb

 

[churchmouse]

This is an up-date from the OP.....HappyGunner



Range equipment failure - 4/23/17 update

I had this encountered over the weekend, a no shoot was hit (full diameter hit inside) and struck a popper, I mentioned that it's range equipment failure and a reshoot. I got a confused look as a response.

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and no- shoots is deemed to be impenetrable:

9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

 

[bwframe]

This is an up-date from the OP.....HappyGunner



Range equipment failure - 4/23/17 update

I had this encountered over the weekend, a no shoot was hit (full diameter hit inside) and struck a popper, I mentioned that it's range equipment failure and a reshoot. I got a confused look as a response.

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and no- shoots is deemed to be impenetrable:

9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.