Video for discussion

[Shay]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCz8Tl2ELk

 

[Shay]

If you watch closely a flashlight knife makes a cameo.

 

[Tripp11]

"That's my partner!!"

Yeah, my partner is the guy shooting at a cardboard target from 7 yards away while me and another guy stand with our shoulders right up against the cardboard target. Did I mention my partner is shooting live ammo directly at us down range?

 

[Tripp11]

If you watch closely a flashlight knife makes a cameo.

I think I watched closely enough to see at least one, maybe two, Jedi knights too...no joke. Use the force, Luke...

 

[Shay]

"That's my partner!!"

Yeah, my partner is the guy shooting at a cardboard target from 7 yards away while me and another guy stand with our shoulders right up against the cardboard target. Did I mention my partner is shooting live ammo directly at us down range?

The downrange drills bothered me the least out of the stuff in the video. And it may seem like a small distinction, but he wasn't shooting directly at them. He was shooting near them otherwise he would have shot them.

In this video I see techniques and tactics being taught and I can't really imagine a practical application for most of them. There's some really odd stuff they've come up with.

Reminds me of the scene from Boondock Saints where the FBI agent is trying to figure out why the crime scene is so complicated.

Television. Television is the explanation for this - you see this in bad television

 

[esrice]

The use of a real weapon during some of the impact drills bothers me. Namely the one where he shoves the muzzle into the guy's neck. Sure he may have unloaded it, but I don't know that, and a blue gun could've just as easily been substituted for everyone's verification.

I would also be curious to hear the reasoning behind subduing an attacker and then shooting somewhere else. It seems like the most immediate threat is the guy with his hands on you, not the guy in pistol range. A live attacker isn't going to just sit there and let you take shots at his buddy. If you have the time and ability to access your firearm, you have the time and ability to put some rounds into the guy holding onto you.

The downrange photographer stunt does have training merit, but I think it can be conducted in other ways that induce similar stress and still necessitate focus. Putting live bodies down there leaves zero room for error (and there's always error in a training environment-- that's why we do it).

But hey, it looks cool on video and in games, and from the opening and closing it looks like they are into video games.

 

[Shay]

The downrange photographer stunt does have training merit, but I think it can be conducted in other ways that induce similar stress and still necessitate focus.

Specifics, man. How do you think it should be done?

 

[esrice]

Specifics, man. How do you think it should be done?

If it were me, something would have to change on one end of the equation.

A) Change the motivation on the target end. Maybe shoot between two vehicles. No one wants a bullet hole through their $30k Escalade, but at least if you do no one dies.

or

B) Change the weapon. Shoot UTM or Simunition rounds. Then keep the live bodies next to the target. Or hell, pull the trigger on a live person (like you do in your classes ).

 

[Tripp11]

The downrange drills bothered me the least out of the stuff in the video. And it may seem like a small distinction, but he wasn't shooting directly at them. He was shooting near them otherwise he would have shot them.

Being a relatively new shooter and trying to take more and more training classes, I've only read about downrange training and/or 360 degree training.

So, the downrange drill conducted in the video is supposed to benefit the shooter, correct? To add stress by placing two persons in close proximity to the target?

Why not have a target designated to be engaged and then put two no shoot targets to the side? I understand it's not a live person, so perhaps that's why this type of downrange training takes place. How about placing sacrificial lambs, instead of humans, in close proximity? What about airsoft products?

 

[Shay]

If it were me, something would have to change on one end of the equation.

A) Change the motivation on the target end. Maybe shoot between two vehicles. No one wants a bullet hole through their $30k Escalade, but at least if you do no one dies.

or

B) Change the weapon. Shoot UTM or Simunition rounds. Then keep the live bodies next to the target. Or hell, pull the trigger on a live person (like you do in your classes ).

Everything you list above I've done. Trust me, it's not the same.

 

[esrice]

Everything you list above I've done. Trust me, it's not the same.

Oh I believe you that its not the same. I just think the risk outweighs the benefit in such an exercise.

In a certain setting with certain people under certain circumstances maybe. But not for a "Level 1" handgun course with a bunch of random people.

 

[techres]

Why would you stab someone in the neck with a Glock 17 when you could stab them in the neck with the bullets from the same Glock 17?

Maybe you missed already?

Alot.

Techres

(did not watch with sound so maybe this was covered in the blah, blah I missed)

 

[Shay]

Oh I believe you that its not the same. I just think the risk outweighs the benefit in such an exercise.

In a certain setting with certain people under certain circumstances maybe.

The risks outweigh the benefits....but in certain settings with certain people it's OK?

You WANT to believe but you just can't get there.

 

[Shay]

Why would you stab someone in the neck with a Glock 17 when you could stab them in the neck with the bullets from the same Glock 17?

Maybe you missed already?

Alot.

Techres

(did not watch with sound so maybe this was covered in the blah, blah I missed)

This sucks because I find myself defending these guys, and that wasn't my intention.

There are plenty of reasons to hit someone with a firearm. If your gun isn't working for whatever reason and you are at ECQC distance, using the gun as an impact weapon makes sense to buy yourself time to fix it or reload or run away or whatever. If you notice, these guys reload after the fake strikes before they shoot the target. I can only guess this is to simulate an empty or malfunctioned gun.

The use of a live gun for this drill isn't a good idea though.

 

[esrice]

You WANT to believe but you just can't get there.

I believe that a scenario like that exists in real life. But the reward there outweighs the risk. In training I just don't see it. For me, risk wins.

We train as close to reality as we safely can. I've never killed a man, but you won't see me dragging a hobo into the woods so I can be 100% realistic and get the full effect of taking a human life.

For the majority of us, there will always exist a gap between training and reality.

 

[Shay]

For the majority of us, there will always exist a gap between training and reality.

The goal of realistic training should be to narrow that gap.

With the obvious exception of hobo killing.

 

[esrice]

The goal of realistic training should be to narrow that gap.

With the obvious exception of hobo killing.

I agree. On both accounts.

 

[templar223]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCz8Tl2ELk

Discuss?

I take it they include treatment of GSWs in their course, right?

To include hands-on treatment of actual wounds, right?

I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than train with those idiots.

John

 

[maxmayhem]

i think any of these moves will be too hard to duplicate in a real threat....i would not be shooting at someone with an attacker right beside me...this wont work

 

[maxmayhem]

i will not be hitting someone with my weapon...i will be shooting someone with my weapon...i think this video has some foolish techniques....i am going to swoop your arms behind you which will disable your legs from moving someway and then i am going to shoot downrange just like in the movies...then we see the same orange mag bottom gun that was shoved in someone's throat but now in live fire drillls WHAT!?!?!?!....there is not a single thing to be learned from this video...sorry but i think this is STUPID