Video shows NYPD officer killed by friendly fire

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  • Ark

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    Well this thread IS about cops shooting and killing one of their own because of their lack of proficiency with a firearm.
    If you want to make excuses and deflect by throwing the "CoPs ArEnT tHe OnLy OnEs WhO cAnT sHoOt", thats on you.

    Regular citizens aren't issued a firearm as a part of their uniform.
    Regular citizens cant draw and point their firearm without repercussions.
    Cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard.

    Couldn't agree more. "But other people" is no excuse for poor performance on the part of people who self-select into a job where they are expected to be able to use a firearm proficiently in defense of themselves and others. Incidents like this illustrate both personal shortcomings in the judgement and ability of the officers involved, and institutional shortcomings in the design and operation of a police department which allows officers onto the street with this level of proficiency.

    The problem will never be fixed so long as the kneejerk response is to whine about how unfair it is for police to be criticized when their poor actions result in deaths, and how everyone else in the world except cops are wrong for engaging in insufficient worship of the profession. I'm not interested in complaining, I'm interested in seeing actual changes that increase the level of firearms proficiency and judgement in the police profession so this doesn't happen again.

    Though, I do agree with others who have pointed out that the primary failure here is judgement, not specifically marksmanship, as it was an unrealistic shot for anyone of any ability. But firearms judgement is just as important, if not more important, to learn than raw proficiency.
     

    Frank_N_Stein

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    Well this thread IS about cops shooting and killing one of their own because of their lack of proficiency with a firearm.
    If you want to make excuses and deflect by throwing the "CoPs ArEnT tHe OnLy OnEs WhO cAnT sHoOt", thats on you.

    Regular citizens aren't issued a firearm as a part of their uniform.
    Regular citizens cant draw and point their firearm without repercussions.
    Cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard.

    Like VUPD said its about decision-making, not marksmanship. My point was that this thread has turned into making generalized statements about the police, as usual. I get just as pissed as any non-cop when it comes to doing stupid **** that results in injury or death to others, I just don't come to INGO to express my ire.
     

    Hoosierdood

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    Proficiency was the issue. Proficiency is more than marksmanship. It is knowing when to shoot and when not to. It involves knowing your target and what is beyond. It also involves knowing when to use alternative tools rather than your firearm.

    And as VUPDblue stated above, it also deals a lot with decision making.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    You ever been to Friday Night Steel? Cops aren't the only ones that can't shoot, even when there is no pressure.

    I should be surprised by the path this thread has taken, but I'm not.

    I didn't mean to be disparaging, And if anyone took it that way I apologize.

    I agree wholeheartedly,
    I shot in two different PPC leagues for well over 20 years, and still compete when time allows.
    I would tease many officers that if I robbed a bank, I hoped that they got the call...
    And yes, people by and large are horrible marksman...
     

    Denny347

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    Regular citizens aren't issued a firearm as a part of their uniform.
    Regular citizens cant draw and point their firearm without repercussions.
    Cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard.


    WdMxHuW.gif
     

    Sigblitz

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    In a dangerous profession, there will be tragedy. Police officers, fire fighters, tow truck drivers, electricians. Even with training, something bad could happen. It will be scrutinized in their group, and maybe there will be something that needs improvement, something to learn from.

    This is INGO, and our group is going to spitball.
    The problem is they issued them Glock pistols instead of real ones.
     

    actaeon277

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    I have worked for three LE agencies overall. The first two were not far off NYPDs qualifying standard. Basically “stand here, shoot there, go home” once a year.
    Where I work now, we have scenario based training twice a year that includes a qualifying course. In the scenarios we generally shoot 200-300 rounds or more per person, plus simunitions in FoF scenarios. Officers who carry rifles get full training days annually on just the rifle. Of course some are just better at this skill than others, but we do the best we can to make sure training is second to none. I really wish the citizens of Marion County knew and could appreciate how much firearm training we get. I actually can’t believe we keep getting budgeting for 1M+ rounds of ammo every year.

    :yesway:

    Problem is, when some departments train, there are people complaining they are being trained "to kill".
    So, the department trains less. Less bad guys die. But more good guys die.
     

    bwframe

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    I guess I'm just fortunate or hang out in the right circles?

    The officers I have shot with are extremely squared away. They are the one's that you would want taking the the head shot over your shoulder.

    I know these cops I've had the pleasure of shooting with don't necessarily represent all cops, but blanket statements? :dunno:
     

    churchmouse

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    I guess I'm just fortunate or hang out in the right circles?

    The officers I have shot with are extremely squared away. They are the one's that you would want taking the the head shot over your shoulder.

    I know these cops I've had the pleasure of shooting with don't necessarily represent all cops, but blanket statements? :dunno:

    This is my experience.
     

    phylodog

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    NYPD has been a walking disaster when it comes to their firearms training since forever. After working in that specific field for ten years I can honestly say that I don't know what the answer is. The logistic involved in getting training scheduled and executed for 36,000 is a total nightmare, especially in such a large and densely populated area.

    This was absolutely about bad decision making. I've worked with many extremely squared away officers over the years and I can't say I'd be comfortable with any of them (or anyone else on the planet) trying to shoot someone that I'm tangled up with unless we are talking about pressing the muzzle into the bad guy. Way to many uncontrollable variables to take that shot from any kind of distance with any measure of safety.
     

    VUPDblue

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    Exactly. I like the people I work with too much to take that shot from anything other than contact distance. There are more force options available in that situation, even deadly force
     

    kml

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    There are a lot of people that carry a gun daily that don't shoot well...at all. It's not just cops.
    In a previous life part of my job was to man a federal agency range when state and local LE would use it for qualification. Most of the time they would invite me to run their course with them. I almost always took them up on the offer. One thing that struck me was how very different the requirements were between agencies. Some had really involved courses with high round counts and some were very brief, static, and slow.
    From the hundreds, yes, hundreds of officers I watched most weren't very good at all compared to a well trained and practiced shooter. A handfull were outstanding. There wasn't much middle of the pack.

    If someone who carries a gun only shoots a box of ammo a year they aren't going to be very proficient, a uniform doesn't change that. There are cops who only do what is required by the department and there are those who enjoy shooting or at least feel the need to be better with that tool than that allows. The later are the ones that shoot really well because they take it upon themselves to invest in getting and staying good. These are the ones an avid shooter is more likely to run into on a range. The ones that don't shoot on there own you would most likely never even see shoot. That can skew the perception.


    That said, even the cops that weren't that good weren't scary like a lot of daily gun carying civilians I've seen. The cops almost all had good, safe, gun handling. Go to a public range and tell me you can say the same about a lot of ccw folks.

    A gun is an important but very small part of the job in any type law enforcement. There are dozens of other skills that are needed daily and finite time and resources to maintain proficiency at them all.

    From my perspective, the only way firearms training plays into the tragedy above is that they didn't even know enough about their ability with their service weapon to know that a gun was NOT the tool for that situation.
     

    drillsgt

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    Like VUPD said its about decision-making, not marksmanship. My point was that this thread has turned into making generalized statements about the police, as usual. I get just as pissed as any non-cop when it comes to doing stupid **** that results in injury or death to others, I just don't come to INGO to express my ire.

    It was one comment lol, the thread hardly devolved into some kind of cop hating rant, the majority of the comments had been very supportive and understanding. VUPD had a good post describing the state of training at IMPD which was good to hear and I doubt we'd see something this crazy happening at IMPD.
     

    Ark

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    NYPD has been a walking disaster when it comes to their firearms training since forever. After working in that specific field for ten years I can honestly say that I don't know what the answer is. The logistic involved in getting training scheduled and executed for 36,000 is a total nightmare, especially in such a large and densely populated area.

    This was absolutely about bad decision making. I've worked with many extremely squared away officers over the years and I can't say I'd be comfortable with any of them (or anyone else on the planet) trying to shoot someone that I'm tangled up with unless we are talking about pressing the muzzle into the bad guy. Way to many uncontrollable variables to take that shot from any kind of distance with any measure of safety.

    It doesn't help that New York makes it virtually impossible for anyone, police included, to pursue and obtain training on their own time in the rare case that an officer is actually inclined to do so. There's zilch, nada, zip advanced training in the city, and of course under their crappy laws you can't even put your weapon in a lockbox and drive out of the city or out of the state to attend good training. They spend their whole lives in the city and are only exposed to the minimum of opportunities given by the department. No monthly IDPA matches in NYC. Even if you did take time off and travel and arrange to borrow weapons for training, the NYPD's culture would probably flag you as some kind of security risk for going off to train with "crazy militia types" and acting like you don't think the department is training you properly.

    Look at the culture their officers, supervisors, and political leadership are drawn from and espouse. It's not a mystery why East Coast departments perform so poorly.
     
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