Virginia State Police Helicopter crash

[phylodog]

I no longer follow much news on TV anymore in an effort to maintain my cheery self. There are some "non-mainstream" news outlets I follow and some local feeds through FB. I have found that reducing my exposure has made me a happier person. Time for me to focus on my immediate needs and screw the rest as there is nothing I can do abut it other than increase my blood pressure.

I've been in that same pattern for several years. I really used to enjoy watching the Today show in the mornings but since Trump was elected it's turned into a **** show like all the rest. The news was on in the break room while I was eating dinner yesterday evening and Lester Holt was on spewing his slanted BS which is what sparked the question.

 

[SMiller]

FIFY

I don't think there's a political agenda behind that.Just bad journalism everywhere.

Are you saying the US media is not liberal ran? Follow the money...

 

[T.Lex]

What you guys are talking about is known legally as "proximate" cause. There are all sorts of factors that can be labeled as a "cause" of something - particularly a tragedy. Proximate cause is the label for whatever actually made the thing happen at the moment it happened.

From my hobbyist-level knowledge of aviation, I can believe that damage from 7 years ago could, undetected, affect an aircraft in such a way as to cause a catastrophic failure. Metal fatigue on an untested part, unusual wear on a bearing, etc., or even random things like having a flock of birds fly into the flight path.

 

[Sylvain]

Are you saying the US media is not liberal ran? Follow the money...

I'm just saying all I see more than biased media based on political views is just bad journalism, from either right or left wing media.
And not just in the US.

 

[HoughMade]

What you guys are talking about is known legally as "proximate" cause. There are all sorts of factors that can be labeled as a "cause" of something - particularly a tragedy. Proximate cause is the label for whatever actually made the thing happen at the moment it happened...

I think we're really talking about "causation in fact", sine qua non. Whatever the cause for being in the air in the first place is a cause in fact in that, but for the fact the helicopter was in the air for that purpose, it would not have crashed.

Proximate cause goes more to causation that leads to legal liability. In this case, the protests, etc. would appear to be causation in fact, but not a proximate cause as there is (IMHO) issues of both foreseeability and remoteness that cut off causation.

 

[Denny347]

Skim the NTSB statement I posted, Denny. The helicopter was in the air to help provide continuous video feed of the 'events'. It was called away to provide security for McAuliffe's motorcade and crashed enroute, so by your logic McAuliife 'shoulder's some of the blame' as it would not have been doing what it was doing when it crashed had McAuliffe not called them up

We only typically care if the reason we are doing what we are doing when killed/injured is stupid. There is risk in our jobs of course, cannot avoid it. However, if someone hits me running hot to a fight in s school, the driver that hit me might be to blame. However, if those goofs weren't fighting in the first place, I wouldn't have been hit at all. It's totally subjective of course but we do it t work all the time. These are just opinions and have no weight of law criminally and unlikely civilly.

 

[rob63]

Now I'm curious, how far back do you go when determining this causation in fact? Do you blame the Governor for traveling in his car, the protesters, or the people that wanted to remove the statue? Or is it simply that such a thing wouldn't apply to this situation at all precisely because how convoluted it gets?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

All helicopters have an issue with hover that can result in a loss of altitude, it complicated to describe but when you get in it and feel the altitude slipping you need to move the cyclic quickly some direction to get the rotors out of their own wash and into cleaner air. This can be a problem if you are distracted and at low altitude, there just may not have been time to recover before those guys hit the trees.

That is interesting. I'd never heard of that before.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Now I'm curious, how far back do you go when determining this causation in fact? Do you blame the Governor for traveling in his car, the protesters, or the people that wanted to remove the statue? Or is it simply that such a thing wouldn't apply to this situation at all precisely because how convoluted it gets?

My cynical side would say it depends on politics and/or money.

 

[HoughMade]

Now I'm curious, how far back do you go when determining this causation in fact? Do you blame the Governor for traveling in his car, the protesters, or the people that wanted to remove the statue? Or is it simply that such a thing wouldn't apply to this situation at all precisely because how convoluted it gets?

Well since causation in fact without proximate cause is irrelevant to any legal proceeding, it's an intellectual exercise and can go as far back as you can logically connect it. If the governor's parents had sex is a cause in fact....but who cares?

Proximate cause analyzes whether the causation is so direct as to result in legal liability.

 

[rob63]

Well since causation in fact without proximate cause is irrelevant to any legal proceeding, it's an intellectual exercise and can go as far back as you can logically connect it. If the governor's parents had sex is a cause in fact....but who cares?

Proximate cause analyzes whether the causation is so direct as to result in legal liability.

Thanks, that clears it up for me.

Regarding who is ultimately responsible, I think the correct INGO answer is Lincoln.

The good old days; when arguments about the Civil War weren't headline news.

 

[Leadeye]

That is interesting. I'd never heard of that before.

Helicopter rotors are more like wings than fans. The problem starts when air descending on the hub causes a stalled condition starting close to the hub and spreading out. This causes a loss of lift which the pilot feels and may try to correct with power or increasing the pitch of the rotor. More lift is lost as the stall progresses and when recognized the quick correction is to move the helicopter away from the spot, usually forward as that's easier to see. Like anything else in flying, altitude is usually your friend when you make mistakes as it converts to time for you to make a correction. Flying anything close to the ground the margin for error goes way down, that's why landing requires full attention.

 

[BugI02]

We only typically care if the reason we are doing what we are doing when killed/injured is stupid. There is risk in our jobs of course, cannot avoid it. However, if someone hits me running hot to a fight in s school, the driver that hit me might be to blame. However, if those goofs weren't fighting in the first place, I wouldn't have been hit at all. It's totally subjective of course but we do it t work all the time. These are just opinions and have no weight of law criminally and unlikely civilly.

Understood

I would also like to take this opportunity to apologize to INGO LEO. I made a cavalier comment in another thread about people dying all the time before I knew two of the Charlottesville dead were innocents there only to protect and serve. I regret the cold-bloodedness of the post

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Helicopter rotors are more like wings than fans. The problem starts when air descending on the hub causes a stalled condition starting close to the hub and spreading out. This causes a loss of lift which the pilot feels and may try to correct with power or increasing the pitch of the rotor. More lift is lost as the stall progresses and when recognized the quick correction is to move the helicopter away from the spot, usually forward as that's easier to see. Like anything else in flying, altitude is usually your friend when you make mistakes as it converts to time for you to make a correction. Flying anything close to the ground the margin for error goes way down, that's why landing requires full attention.

Oh yeah, all that latter stuff makes sense. I never had the stalling effect explained to me before. Thanks.