Wait for the cops and risk trespassing or leave as requested?

[henktermaat]

"The only thing required for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke.

I for one, am tired of hearing this platitude out of the mouths of internet quarterbacks.

The fact that we even have threads like this proves that interfering with your firearm in ANY public situation is extremely sticky, dire, and may change your life drastically for the worse.

That's a sad fact.

I have said this before and I'll say it again: Pulling my firearm and blazing away is a last resort... and I mean last.

 

[38special]

So the scenario as provided is that you WITNESS the robbery FIRST, then INSERT yourself INTO the situation. See what I mean?

I would absolutely insert myself into the situation. You think we should just stand by and let the store be robbed?

What if the situation is changed and there's a woman being raped in an alley (this one has been discussed here). Just stand by instead of INSERTING yourself into the situation.

Under Indiana Castle Law we have a right to protect those around us who we deem unable to protect themselves, and as gun owners I feel like we have a responsibility to help out if we see a situation like that.

Do I invite trouble or WANT to pull my gun on someone? Absolutely not. I hope I am NEVER put in the situation to make the decision to remove my gun from it's holster. But I will not sit idly by as crime progresses around me.

In my opinion, that's the very reason we carry a gun. Criminals are *supposed* to fear armed citizens. They should have to worry enough not to rob that store or attempt a rape in the first place.

"The only thing required for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke.

Repped.

I for one, am tired of hearing this platitude out of the mouths of internet quarterbacks.

The fact that we even have threads like this proves that interfering with your firearm in ANY public situation is extremely sticky, dire, and may change your life drastically for the worse.

That's a sad fact.

I have said this before and I'll say it again: Pulling my firearm and blazing away is a last resort... and I mean last.

You are correct. It's a bad situation and not one that I *ever* hope to be involved in. Ever.

But if a criminal is putting a gun in the face of a defenseless citizen, I am not going to sit idly by. Is pulling a gun a last resort? Absolutely. Sometimes you are given no other choice (except to ignore and run). I'm not the running type.

Like I said, in no case do I *ever* want to be in the position to make that decision. But would you just leave and let the cops handle it?

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I'm with Henktermaat on this... It is not to be undertaken lightly. By the same logic, since I'm not inside anyone's head, I do my best never to second guess... Too risky of a call for that.

 

[henktermaat]

You are correct. It's a bad situation and not one that I *ever* hope to be involved in. Ever.

But if a criminal is putting a gun in the face of a defenseless citizen, I am not going to sit idly by. Is pulling a gun a last resort? Absolutely. Sometimes you are given no other choice (except to ignore and run). I'm not the running type.

Like I said, in no case do I *ever* want to be in the position to make that decision. But would you just leave and let the cops handle it?

I would make that decision on the spot with much prayer. Someone would have to be in mortal danger.

 

[henktermaat]

I'm with Henktermaat on this... It is not to be undertaken lightly. By the same logic, since I'm not inside anyone's head, I do my best never to second guess... Too risky of a call for that.

Yeah I know what you mean - I would probably allllmost second-guess. That is one Pandoras box I'm not going to open unless I absolutely have to.

 

[38special]

I would make that decision on the spot with much prayer. Someone would have to be in mortal danger.

Fair answer. I agree that it's not to be taken lightly at all so I apologize if I gave that impression.

 

[SigSense]

In my opinion, that's the very reason we carry a gun.

I am afraid that an aggressive DA might interpret your actions in a "vigilante" light. The law is clear about CCW, it's for SELF defense..... not individual policing. I have been involved in a self-defense shooting and even though I was found innocent, it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars and time etc in defense fees because a DA thought that I had acted in a "vigilante" manner. I have learned to be VERY cognizant of my safety (and my loved ones). Thus when I witness some ******* doing the stupid crap that they do, if I can walk away, I walk away. Now if the Feds/State/Local authorities DEPUTIZE all CCW to be a "Shadow" Force of plain-clothed do-gooders, whose legal fees etc were to be paid by the Fed/State/Local coffers.....then I'll start being more aggressive in my civilian law enforcement actions.

 

[littletommy]

I am afraid that an aggressive DA might interpret your actions in a "vigilante" light. The law is clear about CCW, it's for SELF defense..... not individual policing. I have been involved in a self-defense shooting and even though I was found innocent, it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars and time etc in defense fees because a DA thought that I had acted in a "vigilante" manner. I have learned to be VERY cognizant of my safety (and my loved ones). Thus when I witness some ******* doing the stupid crap that they do, if I can walk away, I walk away. Now if the Feds/State/Local authorities DEPUTIZE all CCW to be a "Shadow" Force of plain-clothed do-gooders, whose legal fees etc were to be paid by the Fed/State/Local coffers.....then I'll start being more aggressive in my civilian law enforcement actions.

+1

 

[38special]

I am afraid that an aggressive DA might interpret your actions in a "vigilante" light. The law is clear about CCW, it's for SELF defense..... not individual policing. I have been involved in a self-defense shooting and even though I was found innocent, it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars and time etc in defense fees because a DA thought that I had acted in a "vigilante" manner. I have learned to be VERY cognizant of my safety (and my loved ones). Thus when I witness some ******* doing the stupid crap that they do, if I can walk away, I walk away. Now if the Feds/State/Local authorities DEPUTIZE all CCW to be a "Shadow" Force of plain-clothed do-gooders, whose legal fees etc were to be paid by the Fed/State/Local coffers.....then I'll start being more aggressive in my civilian law enforcement actions.

It's a valid point and one to consider. And I agree - someone in this situation may be fighting lawsuits. But Castle Law in Indiana *does* allow for you to protect citizens of your community. As for a robbery, that was just an example I used. If I see someone being raped or attacked in an alley, I'm going to do what I can to diffuse the situation. If I get sued, I get sued.

Again, I do *not* want to be placed in this situation but morally I cannot walk away from a person in need of help. Will the gun be an absolute last resort? Yes. I don't want to shoot *anyone*. But I believe we should take action to protect fellow law-abiding citizens. That doesn't make me a vigilante or a wanna-be cop. Like I said - I don't want that situation. But I am a law-abiding citizen that cares about the law-abiding citizens around me. I'd want to help, just as I help someone on the side of the road that needs some gas or help with a flat tire.

 

[furbymac]

I am afraid that an aggressive DA might interpret your actions in a "vigilante" light. The law is clear about CCW, it's for SELF defense..... not individual policing. I have been involved in a self-defense shooting and even though I was found innocent, it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars and time etc in defense fees because a DA thought that I had acted in a "vigilante" manner. I have learned to be VERY cognizant of my safety (and my loved ones). Thus when I witness some ******* doing the stupid crap that they do, if I can walk away, I walk away. Now if the Feds/State/Local authorities DEPUTIZE all CCW to be a "Shadow" Force of plain-clothed do-gooders, whose legal fees etc were to be paid by the Fed/State/Local coffers.....then I'll start being more aggressive in my civilian law enforcement actions.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

kinda speaks for its self sorry you were raped by and over zealous D.A.

 

[dburkhead]

I for one, am tired of hearing this platitude out of the mouths of internet quarterbacks.

The fact that we even have threads like this proves that interfering with your firearm in ANY public situation is extremely sticky, dire, and may change your life drastically for the worse.

That's a sad fact.

I have said this before and I'll say it again: Pulling my firearm and blazing away is a last resort... and I mean last.

Last? You mean it would come after such things as:

- Watching your wife/girlfriend/significant other being gang raped.
- Watching a son or daughter be beaten by a thug using a two-by-four with nails in it.
- Letting yourself be robbed at knife point.

Those are "resorts" one could take but I don't think you mean that. When it comes down to it there's a line somewhere short of "last" (gasping out your last breath, unable to move or act) where you would draw (otherwise you might as well leave it home). So where is that line (you don't have to answer here, but I do urge you to think about it: self? Immediate family? Your kid's friends? Your friends? Folk who aren't quite "friends" but a bit more than "casual acquaintances"? Casual acquaintances? People you've seen around? Strangers? On whose behalf are you willing to draw your weapon and who are you willing to see die just so you don't "get involved"?

The attitude you are describing above is exactly what was going on with the folk who stood around and watched Kitty Genovese get raped.

As for "internet quarterback" let me tell you about my very first day coming to live here in Indianapolis.

My wife and I had just arrived from Ohio (where I'd finished college as an "older student" and gotten hired by a small Indianapolis consulting laboratory. My wife and I were staying at the Motel 6 on Shadeland.

I was coming out of the room to go after breakfast when I heard a man and a woman arguing in the parking lot of the "Gentleman's club" next to it (don't remember the name and can't be bothered to look it up). The argument was quite heated and the man was threatening.

The woman broke away from the man, got into her car and drove off. While she was stopped at the next stoplight north (behind other cars), the man got into his car, left the parking lot, and rear ended the woman. He was still accelerating up to the moment of impact so it was quite clearly intentional.

I did not have a gun at that time. All I had was a key fob of pepper spray. Nevertheless, I ran toward the scene. As I passed the front office of the motel I pointed to the female clerk (who had come out with somebody else, apparently to watch what was happening--shades of Kitty Genovese) and said "call the police" (something I'd learned in CPR class--pick somebody and tell them, personally, to call for help; it's more likely to get action than a "somebody dial 911" or the like).

When I got to the intersection I did not see either car. The light had changed and I presumed they both had left the scene. (Later, after I'd gotten my car off the trailer behind the rental truck, I went out with my wife and saw a car with a bent-in front end in one of the parking lots next to the intersection. At that point I figured I just missed it in all the other activity going on.

So you can talk about "internet quarterbacks" and you can even chose to disbelieve my story, but I know what my reactions are when I see someone in danger. I've been there. I've done that. No T-shirts.

 

[henktermaat]

Last? You mean it would come after such things as:

- Watching your wife/girlfriend/significant other being gang raped.
- Watching a son or daughter be beaten by a thug using a two-by-four with nails in it.
- Letting yourself be robbed at knife point.

Well, that was taken way out of context, so much for an intelligent discussion.

 

[dburkhead]

Well, that was taken way out of context, so much for an intelligent discussion.

Well yes, your selective quoting was taking what I said way out of context because I continued to say that I did not think you meant any such thing and it was only a lead in to showing that the "last resort" is not such a hard and fast line as your initial post seemed to indicate.

 

[henktermaat]

Well yes, your selective quoting was taking what I said way out of context because I continued to say that I did not think you meant any such thing and it was only a lead in to showing that the "last resort" is not such a hard and fast line as your initial post seemed to indicate.

I know where my last resort is. And it is a hard and fast line.

 

[360]

I can understand the thought of various situations, but I agree with the fact that you NEVER want to insert yourself into a unfolding situation unless YOU are the one who is directly affected. It is going to open up a legal can of whoop *** that you don't want to have to deal with, not to mention it could ruin your day and the days of other bystanders. The situation you brought up in the OP is one that requires the notification of the local police FIRST before any other action is taken. Now, unless the perp has already walked in guns blazing, I think I would take cover around the corner where I could witness everything going on. Sure the victim has already likely crapped in their pants and is begging for their life, but such is the way the perp wants it in the first place. The whole point of a robbery with a weapon is to instill maximum fear into the victim to gain control of the situation. More often than not, the situation becomes a stand-off, and that time is valuable to the police in orfer to observe the situation, and make a plan to deal with the perp.

I most certainly would not become involved in ANYTHING unless I, or my family is in danger.

But then again, I'm sure there are other situations that might warrant direct action, and not REaction.

 

[38special]

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

kinda speaks for its self sorry you were raped by and over zealous D.A.

Thanks for that! This is the castle law I speak of.

Last? You mean it would come after such things as:

- Watching your wife/girlfriend/significant other being gang raped.
- Watching a son or daughter be beaten by a thug using a two-by-four with nails in it.
- Letting yourself be robbed at knife point.

This, to me, is justified defense under IC.

I can understand the thought of various situations, but I agree with the fact that you NEVER want to insert yourself into a unfolding situation unless YOU are the one who is directly affected. It is going to open up a legal can of whoop *** that you don't want to have to deal with, not to mention it could ruin your day and the days of other bystanders.

...

I most certainly would not become involved in ANYTHING unless I, or my family is in danger.

But then again, I'm sure there are other situations that might warrant direct action, and not REaction.

You are correct. Let me reiterate - I do NOT want to be in this position. But personally, morally, I will not stand by and let an innocent girl be raped because the guy isn't directly affecting me. I am *not* accusing you of anything here, nor am I attempting to take you out of context. Just explaining my opinion.

 

[SigSense]

Furbymac, thanks for the legal reference. Guys, all am saying is to be careful and situationally aware. These kind of discussions really get us thinking. I hope none of you experiences this kind of stressful, dangerous situation.

 

[dburkhead]

I know where my last resort is. And it is a hard and fast line.

Well, since reality tends to be full of intermediates and situations tend to be a continuum rather than having a big gulf where things are always clearly on one side or the other, I'm just dying to hear where exactly that line is and why situation A ><this far to one side of that line is a "last resort" while something just on the other side isn't. On second thought, don't bother saying where your line is. It's exact location doesn't really matter. As in the example I gave of the spectrum of relationships. If your "line" there were "family" would you really let your child's best friend die because they happen to be on the other side of that line? Or if the "line" is "close friends" then does "George" make it and "Fred" not because you've had lunch together a couple more times with George than with Fred?

Or maybe it's how certain you are that someone's life is actually at risk. How "hard and fast" can a line be that's base on how well one can guess whether a person committing robbery and pointing a gun at someone is actually going to shoot? Many years ago while I was home sick one day I was watching Oprah (lordy I hate Oprah but back then with the package we had it was that or soap operas) when she had a number of people, including a police officer, discussing things to do if one is a victim of crime. The question came up about a hypothetical criminal who says they don't want to hurt you and just want your money. The police officers answer was rather graphic. He drew his gun and pointed it at Oprah and while she was standing there looking shocked, said, "a guy is robbing you and pointing a gun at you. Don't you think he'd also be willing to lie to you?" (Now that little demonstration was inexcusable except possibly if it was staged and that was a non-functional prop gun, but I have to admit he did make his point.)

One final point. Think about the first time you heard about the Kitty Genovese case (or any similar case--whatever was the first one you heard of people just standing around and watching while somebody was brutalized by criminals) and what you thought of the people just standing around doing nothing.

Do you really want to be one of those people?

I don't particularly want you to answer here. I'm not looking to get an admission or anything like that. I'm just hoping that you (and anyone reading) will give some serious thought to the kind of person you really want to be. "This above all, to thine own self be true, and it follows as the night the day that thou canst not be false to any man" (that Shakespeare put those words in Polonius' mouth does not make them true--Polonius was a stupid old bore--but he said them well and I happen to agree with this one).

I've made my choice and I've tried to live it, not always successfully as there is no perfection in this world, but I like to think that I've succeeded more often than not.

Edit "canst not be false"

 

[bwframe]

In this scenario, the only thing one should be "drawing" is their cell phone, after they have found cover.

 

[Arm America]

In this scenario, the only thing one should be "drawing" is their cell phone, after they have found cover.

Agreed.
Attempting to thwart a robbery in a busy mall
with Mom's and Kids in tow is not the place to be a hero.

Especially knowing that everything is insured and under camera surveillance.
( We are talking about the OP's original question here)

An active mugging in an alley or a rape in a parking garage
is a different scenario and would/could result in a serious
personal injury to the perp.

Different scenario, different thread.