Want to Jam an AK47?

[MilitaryArms]

Century has produced a number of AKs domestically, usually from parts kits. The Centurion is made from US parts. The AK74's they've offered we're US assembled with various US parts including the infamous Polish Tantals. These were built by third parties and sold by Century.

The WASRs, as noted, are Romanian made from demilled military AKs and also more recently from new parts. The quality of these rifles has varied wildly. I have several Romainian AKs imported and converted by Century and they are good rifles if you know what you're looking for. By converted I mean the rifles come in as single stack mag rifles to meet import regs and Century opens the mag well and installs other US parts for 922r compliance. Sometimes they do a good job, other times they don't. A quick check of the rifle before you buy it will tell you if the rifle is good to go or not.

The Yugos are produced in Serbia (Yugoslavia no longer exists). Like the WASRs they require conversion once in the States.

I have no problem buying their import rifles but I will not buy their domestically assembled rifles anymore. The quality of the components that are US made tend to be substandard, like their barrels. The 74 barrels for example were often out of spec and non-chrome lined. In AKs a non-chrome lined barrel that you fire surplus 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 or even commercially produced Russian ammo in will have very short service lives. The steel jackets used in the bullet construction is intended to be used in rifles with chrome bores. These bullets will quickly erode non-chrome barrels especially if you rapid fire them.

Century outsources the assembly of their rifles that are produced domestically. There have been several companies that have done this assembly for Century over the years.

 

[DSmith78]

my wasr shot fine right out the box with no cleaning at all

 

[MilitaryArms]

my wasr shot fine right out the box with no cleaning at all

...as most will.

You could pour a handful of dirt into the action and it would likely still work just fine. It is, after all, an AK.

 

[the1kidd03]

...as most will.

You could pour a handful of dirt into the action and it would likely still work just fine. It is, after all, an AK.

Do those makers even put out a chrome lined barrel gun? I've not seen one, but I'm not an AK guru by any means

I have CAI Romanian, none of which are chrome lined, but I've been thinking of picking up a Waffen Werks 74

 

[MilitaryArms]

Do those makers even put out a chrome lined barrel gun? I've not seen one, but I'm not an AK guru by any means

Their import guns like the WASR do have chrome lined barrels. Their domestically produced rifles like the milled Polish AK's in 7.62x39 (US made receiver and barrel) and their AK74's (Bulgarian and Polish Tantal) all have non-chrome lined barrels. Their import rifles will have chrome lined barrels.

I have CAI Romanian, none of which are chrome lined, but I've been thinking of picking up a Waffen Werks 74

I have a couple Waffen AK's and they're good rifles for the money. They will have better fit and finish and higher quality parts than the Century built guns (domestic).

 

[the1kidd03]

Their import guns like the WASR do have chrome lined barrels. Their domestically produced rifles like the milled Polish AK's in 7.62x39 (US made receiver and barrel) and their AK74's (Bulgarian and Polish Tantal) all have non-chrome lined barrels. Their import rifles will have chrome lined barrels.


I have a couple Waffen AK's and they're good rifles for the money. They will have better fit and finish and higher quality parts than the Century built guns (domestic).

Hmm...I'm pretty sure none of them are chrome lined, at least that was obvious last time I looked, but I also thought they were both imports.

I'll have to double check mine when I get home

 

[MilitaryArms]

My WASR is clearly chromed lined. My AES-10B is chrome lined as well. My Draco is also chrome lined as is my Mini Draco. All are Romanian built guns.

 

[the1kidd03]

My WASR is clearly chromed lined. My AES-10B is chrome lined as well. My Draco is also chrome lined as is my Mini Draco. All are Romanian built guns.

Maybe I'm all washed up then. I can tell pretty easily on an AR whether it's chrome lined or not, especially when it's one I'm building.

What's the easiest way to spot it in an AK? ARs you can usually see little "overspill" of chrome on the end. I thoroughly clean after every time I shoot them so perhaps I can't tell the difference by the mere shine of it?!?

Now I'm eager to get home. I know they say romanian on them, but on quick scan chroming was not apparent so I assumed they weren't. I don't shoot the AKs a lot or attend training with them so...

 

[MilitaryArms]

The easiest way to tell is to clean the muzzle of the rifle and remove all carbon. You'll see a ring on the end of the muzzle that's shiny, that's the chrome.

 

[the1kidd03]

The easiest way to tell is to clean the muzzle of the rifle and remove all carbon. You'll see a ring on the end of the muzzle that's shiny, that's the chrome.

Roger that. I haven't taken off any of the flash suppressors/compensators off yet. Will check it out further later. Thanks.

You should do a video on AK ID'ing

 

[Tomfoolery]

Their import guns like the WASR do have chrome lined barrels. Their domestically produced rifles like the milled Polish AK's in 7.62x39 (US made receiver and barrel) and their AK74's (Bulgarian and Polish Tantal) all have non-chrome lined barrels. Their import rifles will have chrome lined barrels.


I have a couple Waffen AK's and they're good rifles for the money. They will have better fit and finish and higher quality parts than the Century built guns (domestic).

I have spoken with Green Mountain several times and they have assured me that the Polish Milled and Polish UFs distributed by CAI have barrels sourced from them. They are chrome lined.

Now the level of chromium found in a domestic barrel vs an imported barrel is like comparing apples to bushels of apples. Russia, China,Romania, Poland, Bulgaria don't have an EPA breathing down the back of their next. Our laws here in the states prohibit certain exposure levels and we simply aren't allowed to produce a plating level comparable to those other countries. It isn't a lack of knowledge, skill or chromium... it's just regulations.

As for the varied pros and cons of chrome lined barrels that is more up to the end user consumer. Non chromed barrels will be more accurate but will suffer from corrosive effects. Chrome barrels should have a longer life at the expense of accuracy. My Yugo M70 (which isn't chrome lined obviously) has over 5,000 rounds through it of corrosive M67. The barrel is still shiny, it passes it's bore test brilliantly and mics @.311, it's awesome.

I have never heard of steel case ammo chewing up barrels before. Not saying that isn't true but I would think the case steel would have to be of a harder grade then the barrel which of course it isn't. As for corrosive ammo well...The only difference is the mercuric primers ... it is the potassium and sodium salts in these which cause the problem (i.e., their residue is a magnet for any/all moisture).

edit - Now I won't begin to argue about CAI trying to pull a fast one with those Tantal barrels. That was dirty pool and they deserved to eat the cost of them in the end.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I have spoken with Green Mountain several times and they have assured me that the Polish Milled and Polish UFs distributed by CAI have barrels sourced from them. They are chrome lined.

The one's I inspected in 2010 did *not* have chrome barrels. Perhaps they sourced later barrels from Green Mountain, but the barrels I personally looked at were straight carbon steel. These were rifles that came in to Blythes when they first hit the market.

I have never heard of steel case ammo chewing up barrels before. Not saying that isn't true but I would think the case steel would have to be of a harder grade then the barrel which of course it isn't. As for corrosive ammo well...The only difference is the mercuric primers ... it is the potassium and sodium salts in these which cause the problem (i.e., their residue is a magnet for any/all moisture).

This extensive test should make the differences in wear between copper jacketed bullets and steel jacketd pretty clear: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

As for chrome being used to protect against corrosion, that's never been why chrome was used in military barrels. It's there to extend barrel life, period. Chrome will be damaged by corrosive ammo as well, just not as quickly. The added side benefit is that chrome barrels clean up easier than non-chrome barrels (and other gas system components). Today the modern method for accomplishing the same barrel life without the accuracy hit is nitrite treatment. Modern barrels like those found on the ACR or even on LWRC AR's (and others) are nitrite treated.

edit - Now I won't begin to argue about CAI trying to pull a fast one with those Tantal barrels. That was dirty pool and they deserved to eat the cost of them in the end.

I had one and it was a mess. Their warranty, or lack thereof, was also a total mess. I swore I would never deal with them again after that deal but have since bought a few more Romy rifles... I just check them out before I pay for them and never buy a Century product sight unseen.

 

[HavokCycle]

you can't even jam an AK with a ham sandwich, WTF did you do.

 

[Tomfoolery]

I can't objectively use that test from luckygunner as a model for possible wear to an AK though. It is a known fact that steel case does not expand like brass and therefore causes excessive fouling in the receiver as well as expedited throat erosion. I can't comment further on AR pattern rifles and the ins and outs of them, I don't own one. Just Kalashnikovs.

If I saw erosion like that on a AK pattern rile I would pic it and post it. I shoot plenty of steel and NONE of my barrels look like that. Not saying this is a bunk test (it's obvious they put some effort into it) but it doesn't confirm anything as of yet.

 

[UncleMike]

you can't even jam an AK with a ham sandwich, WTF did you do.

Mr Kalashnikov has stated that he designed his rifle to be "Peasant Proof."
I had a friend bring me his single stack WASR that he said had "jammed".
He said that he had fired one round and then the gun wouldn't cycle.
When I took it apart I found that a round had wedged between the BCG and the receiver.
He said he had no idea how that happened.
I congratulated him on being the first human being to effectively stop an AK pattern rifle from functioning.
Chalk one up for "Americans can do anything"!

 

[MilitaryArms]

I can't objectively use that test from luckygunner as a model for possible wear to an AK though. It is a known fact that steel case does not expand like brass and therefore causes excessive fouling in the receiver as well as expedited throat erosion. I can't comment further on AR pattern rifles and the ins and outs of them, I don't own one. Just Kalashnikovs.

If I saw erosion like that on a AK pattern rile I would pic it and post it. I shoot plenty of steel and NONE of my barrels look like that. Not saying this is a bunk test (it's obvious they put some effort into it) but it doesn't confirm anything as of yet.

Steel cases have absolutely nothing to do with barrel erosion. Steel cases don't damage your chamber. Steel jackets and cases behave the same in ARs as they do AKs. To think an AR barrel is any less, or more, likely to be effected by steel ammo is misguided I believe.

Most Russian ammo has steel JACKETS on the bullet. The steel jacket increases friction and thus significantly increases erosion especially on non-chrome barrels. Russian AKs and most other com-block rifles will have thick chrome linings on their barrels to prevent wear and extend barrel life. Without this protection the barrels service life will be shortened.

You may think that because the bullet has a copper wash over the steel jacket that its a copper jacket on the bullet -- but that's not the case. The copper wash is only there to prevent oxidation of the steel jacket.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Mr Kalashnikov has stated that he designed his rifle to be "Peasant Proof."
I had a friend bring me his single stack WASR that he said had "jammed".
He said that he had fired one round and then the gun wouldn't cycle.
When I took it apart I found that a round had wedged between the BCG and the receiver.
He said he had no idea how that happened.
I congratulated him on being the first human being to effectively stop an AK pattern rifle from functioning.
Chalk one up for "Americans can do anything"!

AKs don't malfunction often, but this type of malfunction is one of the more common types with the rifle on the rare occasions when they do choke.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Here's a .308 Wolf steel jacketed bullet I cut in half to show the construction.

 

[UncleMike]

AKs don't malfunction often, but this type of malfunction is one of the more common types with the rifle on the rare occasions when they do choke.

Yup....
Normally the "Clear Stoppage Drill" gets them back in action.
That was the first time I'd ever seen one in full stop mode.

 

[Tomfoolery]

Right. I understand. Not sure why I started talking cases. Maybe because whenever I hear the word "steel" used in combination with ARs I automatically run back to thinking cases.

Not arguing the superiority of import barrels either, we're on the same page there. I would like to see this test performed with AKs though.

1 import barrel using M67
1 import barrel using Tula
1 domestic barrel (chromed lined) using Wolf
1 domestic barrel (non chrome lined) using Brown Bear

+1 more bonus barrel test using M67 on a domestic non chrome lined barrel.


If we could dig up enough Chinese M43 I would like to see that used also but alas collectors far and wide would be screaming.