Water Sanitation: Chlorine or… Ethanol?

[the1kidd03]

Some spores of Botulinum and a few other bacteria can survive boiling. However, steam-pressure boiling takes care of Botulinum spores.

Does adding iodine, bleach, etc. kills those remaining risks?

Most of my stored water is tap or bottled anyhow and I filter and boil water from the outdoors. But it would be nice to eliminate the majority of the most likely risks. Or at least know how to for that matter. I've not been sick from filtering/boiling yet though.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Does adding iodine, bleach, etc. kills those remaining risks?

Most of my stored water is tap or bottled anyhow and I filter and boil water from the outdoors. But it would be nice to eliminate the majority of the most likely risks. Or at least know how to for that matter. I've not been sick from filtering/boiling yet though.

I don't know.

I know that iodine compounds kill a vast array of nasty stuff, but I don't think it will kill everything.
Cryptosporidium is one that I know iodine by itself won't take care of. Not sure if it would work if you used it sequentially with chlorine compounds.
But filtration, depending on the size of the pores, probably would knock out Cryptosporidium. If I recall correctly, standard 0.22 micron hospital filter tubing removes it, but I'm not positive. I've slept since then and I am by no means anything even approaching an expert at water purification. I just go with pressure-steam boiling if in doubt. Combined with a good filter, I wouldn't worry at all in the first world. Third world water quality might require some creative thinking. I'll think about it some more and see if anything else comes to me as a good potential solution. This is why I love INGO, it's not just a brainstorming session, it is a brain hurricane.

 

[dudley0]

Good discussion as I am trying to figure this stuff out...Doesn't the potency of bleach fade after time, especially if just sitting in the original bottle on the shelf? I have read Calcium Hypochlorite is a better alternative to disinfect water.

Bottled bleach has a short shelf life.

Calciun hypercholite at the correct potency is granular bleach and has a very long shelf life.

...or so I have been told.

I bought pounds of the stuff for storage. Pool shock at the right level will do the same thing.

 

[the1kidd03]

An interesting thread. Particularly the video by Dave Canterbury.

Water

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Maybe some evaporation-condense cycles before and after purification might help.
It's all I can think to do in addition to filtration, chemical treatment, and boiling.
Reverse osmosis and de-ionization are rather impractical in most circumstances, especially without power.

 

[Iroquois]

Evaporation [ turning water to steam] is very inefficient for purifying water. It only takes 1 btu per pound to raise the temperature 1 degree...till you hit the boiling point. Then the whole equation goes upside down...it takes about a thousand btus per pound to change it over to steam. Pressure cooking it would work cheaper, as would the chlorine treatment. You can take the chlorine taste out with a cheap charcoal filter...I'm guessing the chemical goes too.
I don't know a lot about ethanol , just what I learned at work and on the Moonshiners show on tv. Moonshine is 10% methanol , luckily it's the first 10% so it's easy to get rid of. We use a lot of 'denatured' alcohol at the plant, and to reuse it we re-distill it. Our new still removes some of the methanol...it comes off the truck at 5% methanol which makes it undrinkable. We were planning to sell our reworked ethanol but can't [legally] because it is only 2% methanol...below the legal limit for industrial use. .
So you could make alcohol for fuel and remove the first 10% [methanol] to use as lamp fuel. Last thing I heard was you could drink your own , but you can't sell it or give it away...but I'm no lawyer....JMHO.

 

[shibumiseeker]

So you could make alcohol for fuel and remove the first 10% [methanol] to use as lamp fuel. Last thing I heard was you could drink your own , but you can't sell it or give it away...but I'm no lawyer....JMHO.

You heard wrong. The moment you distill ethanol without permission from the King, you have commited a crime, whether you sell it or not.

Also, methanol and ethanol make extremely poor lamp fuels because they burn with very light blue flames.

 

[Iroquois]

You heard wrong. The moment you distill ethanol without permission from the King, you have commited a crime, whether you sell it or not.

Also, methanol and ethanol make extremely poor lamp fuels because they burn with very light blue flames.

Yeah, but 95% burns very hot...enough to melt glass or boil water. Has anyone tried it in a white-gas stove? I sort of figured this was a SHTF type scenario, and maybe the law won't matter. And that info was based on a radio broadcast from the '70s... As I said I'm no lawyer, and laws change... anybody know the facts on permitting process for ethanol production?

 

[ifr2]

You're looking for 2 ppm chlorine concentration. The easiest way to disinfect water is with 12.5% bleach.

Add the bleach, then run the water under pressure through a barrel that has 70% gravel and 30% anthracite(coal). Then test for your clorine residual. Anything less that .02 ppm isn't carrying enough disinfectant. Anything over 4ppm will make you sick. Treat and filter over at least a 20 minute period. The water should be good for about 4 days.

BTW, I work in water treatment.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Evaporation [ turning water to steam] is very inefficient for purifying water.

I was referring to natural evaporation-condense cycles in addition to pressure-boiling and filtering it.
Natural evaporation happens all the time is the ultimate in passive processes.

 

[rhino]

If you have a choice (i.e. can afford it), chlorine dioxide is probably a better choice than either hypochlorite on, gaseous chloring, oriodine. The ClO2 is more effective on giardia and cryptosporidium cysts than ClO-, and there is less bad chlorine taste.

 

[ifr2]

Chlorine dioxide is only 2nd to ozone in effectivness for removal of crypto. The problem with either/both is cost and availablity.

 

[navarre1095]

I run the drinking water plant where I live. I put these together a few years ago.
Zombie Squad ? View topic - Long Term Water Treatment
Zombie Squad ? View topic - Disaster plan for Water Utility Customers.

Here's some good info on SODIS disinfection.
Zombie Squad ? View topic - New Tech Uses Solar UV for Water Disinfection

Try googling "Bio Sand" or "Slow Sand" filters.

 

[BravoMike]

Chlorine Dioxide... I didn't think it was too expensive, especially considering what people pay for other things that are not as important IMHO. I have read a fair bit about it and it seems very effective. For backpacking I use a combination of chlorine dioxide and filter. I have no worries of getting sick.

 

[rhino]

Chlorine Dioxide... I didn't think it was too expensive, especially considering what people pay for other things that are not as important IMHO. I have read a fair bit about it and it seems very effective. For backpacking I use a combination of chlorine dioxide and filter. I have no worries of getting sick.

On a small scale, like tablets for your personal drinking water, it's not bad. It's spendy for a municipal water supply or large-scale water storage of your own when compared to hypochlorite. You can get hypochlorite cheap in huge quantities.

 

[BravoMike]

On a small scale, like tablets for your personal drinking water, it's not bad. It's spendy for a municipal water supply or large-scale water storage of your own when compared to hypochlorite. You can get hypochlorite cheap in huge quantities.

I haven't heard of hypochlorite until now and will look into that. Out of curiosity, how much water should one plan on purifying? As mentioned up thread, not all water needs purification (ie. rain water). I have found the larger size Aqua Mira liquid for ~$20. Each one treats 60 gal, so for $100 one can have enough to treat 300 gal.

Water Purification Drops - Aquamira Water Tablets to Cleanse your Water

 

[BravoMike]

Sodium Hypochlorite appears to be the active ingredient that is found in household bleach. I thought Chlorine Dioxide was more effective than that, but I don't know of other forms that hypochlorite comes in.

For anyone who is interested, and can make some sense of this (I'm not one who can, I just try)....
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mdbp/alternative_disinfectants_guidance.pdf

navarre1095, thanks for the links they look like good information. I will have to take some time to read them.

 

[navarre1095]

If a municipality overdoses Chlorine Dioxide it causes a ridiculous amount of problems. It's out there but utilities are cautioned about starting it now. I am trying to get my utility on mixed oxidants. For that matter, the MIOX pen is absolutely stellar as far as disinfection/ inactivation goes. Amazon.com: MSR Miox Water Purifier with Batteries: Sports & Outdoors

 

[shibumiseeker]

anybody know the facts on permitting process for ethanol production?

Yes, and that information was posted in this very thread.

I've done extensive research in the areas of ethanol fuel production and have gone through the licensing process in the past.

 

[rhino]

I haven't heard of hypochlorite until now and will look into that. Out of curiosity, how much water should one plan on purifying? As mentioned up thread, not all water needs purification (ie. rain water). I have found the larger size Aqua Mira liquid for ~$20. Each one treats 60 gal, so for $100 one can have enough to treat 300 gal.

Water Purification Drops - Aquamira Water Tablets to Cleanse your Water

Hypochlorite = ClO- = the active part of chlorine bleach.

Usually in household bleach it's sodium hypochlorite, but you will find it as potassium hypochlorite or calcium hypochlorite as well. All of them are salts that when dissolved in water release the ClO- ion, which is what kills stuff in your drinking water and in your pool. Which salt you use depends mostly on cost and availability.

I only have a small water supply, which came from the tap in my house. Based on the smell (I have a really poor sense of smell), I am confident that there is enough residual chlorine that I don't have to treat it for storage. If I keep it for more than a year or so, I might add a little bleach to it and then aerate it before I used it, though.

How much you need to purify depends on how much you need to use, I think, If you're going to cook with it and it will boil, I wouldn't worry about it. The same with washing clothes. If you're going to drink it or use it to irrigate wounds, then I'd worry about it.