We Are Our Own Worst Enemy

[Boilers]

Don't let pesky strict interpretation of the second amendment cloud anyone's judgment here.

As Limbaugh would say, don't be led into discussions like this video, by agreeing to their premise.. We've had our 2A rights bastardized so much, it's easy to be arguing the finer points of background checks. Where TF does the 2A speak about background checks?

 

[finity]

Does anybody really believe that guys like those portayed in the videos would NOT SELL a gun to someone because they couldn't pass a NICS check? It is ALREADY illegal for them to sell to someone who admits to not being able to pass the BG check. What's to stop them from just disregarding the BG check & selling the gun anyway? Unless of course you have some sort of registration requirement that ensures the possessor is the "lawfull" owner...

I hope nobody is suggesting that.

Enforce the existing laws before adding new ones that probably won't make a difference anyway.

 

[Gaudard]

Does anybody really believe that guys like those portayed in the videos would NOT SELL a gun to someone because they couldn't pass a NICS check? It is ALREADY illegal for them to sell to someone who admits to not being able to pass the BG check. What's to stop them from just disregarding the BG check & selling the gun anyway? Unless of course you have some sort of registration requirement that ensures the possessor is the "lawfull" owner...

I hope nobody is suggesting that.

Enforce the existing laws before adding new ones that probably won't make a difference anyway.

Good points.

 

[cce1302]

That video makes me sick. I don't blame the sellers at all. It's the straw purchasers and those that cannot pass a background check breaking the law. There is no need to pass more restrictions on the rest of us.

Someone should drive to NYC and break some laws. "SEE?? I can BREAK the LAW in NYC, too!"

The laws are "Bad guys are not allowed to buy guns." Adding more laws would just be "For real this time, bad guys are not allowed to buy guns. We mean it."

 

[finity]

That video makes me sick. I don't blame the sellers at all. It's the straw purchasers and those that cannot pass a background check breaking the law. There is no need to pass more restrictions on the rest of us.

The problem is, at least in one of the videos, that the seller was told by the buyer that he couldn't pass the background check. At that instant if the seller completed the sale he was breaking the law. Which he did & joked about it.

In the other case, it was pretty obvious that there was a straw purchase going on & the dealer ignored it.

I agree that the straw puchasers & prohibited people are part of the problem. They should be held accountable, too. But I see no difference between a seller KNOWINGLY (or at least SUSPECTING) selling a gun to those two people at a gun show or taking his guns to some back-alley behind the local crack-house & selling them out of his trunk to any & all takers. Both should pay the consequences of breaking the same law.

 

[curraheeguns]

ATF Responds:

ATF Press Release

 

[22lr]

ATF Press Release

Ok now that is interesting, so the ATF wasn't involved.......

 

[BE Mike]

The fact of the matter is that Mayor Bloomberg is concerned that some of his "subjects" in New York might be able to possess firearms. He doesn't think that anyone should be able to possess a firearm. He will do everything he can to keep guns out of the hands of everyone.

That being said, I am concerned about the "sleeze balls" who sell at gun shows and elsewhere who don't care who will end up with the guns. These shady characters, who have no respect for the law, don't belong in the gun business and we would be better off without them. The gun business does seem to attract a certain amount of these types. These same types of folks are seen working at carnivals. I'd like to see the gun-selling fringe element prosecuted so they can't ever be associated with the vast majority of legitimate law-abiding gun dealers and gun owners. When these misfits get out of the pokey, they can get a job at a carnival.

 

[06orange1300c]

Interesting that they didn't discuss all personal sales or internet sales. I know it is not a popular thing but...I am not all that opposed to making all sales require a background check. I am not opposed to registering the ones I have. My concern is that if we continue to fight the "it is my right and you can't take it away, I don't have to tell you if I have them or how many, you'll get it when you pry it from my cold dead hand, the government is out to get us" fight...we end up becoming the nut jobs that the media makes us out to be.

I think we would be better off fighting FOR a set of good common sense laws that would allow us to keep and bear but to do so in a manner that shows we are responsible citizens who want the best for America. Otherwise, we end up looking like those guys in the video. RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS are what we need to be (and be seen as).

I do think we should all be able to own as many of whatever is available as we want as long as we don't prove that we can't be trusted to be responsible in that ownership. I just think that we need to let the world know that WE want responsible ownership too.

OK, I said it...bring on the abuse...

 

[BE Mike]

Interesting that they didn't discuss all personal sales or internet sales. I know it is not a popular thing but...I am not all that opposed to making all sales require a background check. I am not opposed to registering the ones I have. My concern is that if we continue to fight the "it is my right and you can't take it away, I don't have to tell you if I have them or how many, you'll get it when you pry it from my cold dead hand, the government is out to get us" fight...we end up becoming the nut jobs that the media makes us out to be.

I think we would be better off fighting FOR a set of good common sense laws that would allow us to keep and bear but to do so in a manner that shows we are responsible citizens who want the best for America. Otherwise, we end up looking like those guys in the video. RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS are what we need to be (and be seen as).

I do think we should all be able to own as many of whatever is available as we want as long as we don't prove that we can't be trusted to be responsible in that ownership. I just think that we need to let the world know that WE want responsible ownership too.

OK, I said it...bring on the abuse...

There are plenty of unenforced gun laws on the books now. I can't see what adding any more would accomplish. I don't think that registration accomplishes anything except to let bureaucrats know what guns are legally owned. The possibilities of using registration records to take away law-abiding citizens' arms chills me to the bone. Government entities if not kept in check will abuse citizen rights. Just look at New Orleans.

The laws should focus on people misusing guns, not guns. Violent crime has come way down over the years despite or should I say because more folks are carrying legally than ever before. Gun accidents are way down too. The "solution" of more restrictive gun laws accomplishes what? Frankly I couldn't care less what is the state of "world opinion" concerning our gun laws. I don't think many foreign governments have many laws that we should emulate. We, not they, are the beacon of liberty in the world. Freedom does have it's price. Cradle-to-the-grave security has its price also, and that is personal freedom. I'm not prepared to pay that price.

 

[Beau]

You've abused yourself enough. You seem to have the mindset that if we just go along .gov will take care of us and have our best interests at heart.

We have common sense laws. Criminals lack common sense. Hence they break the law. Adding more laws and restrictions will not help the issue. They will only further restrict the law abiding citizen.

 

[Bisley Man]

"We, not they, are the beacon of liberty in the world"

There are plenty of unenforced gun laws on the books now. I can't see what adding any more would accomplish. I don't think that registration accomplishes anything except to let bureaucrats know what guns are legally owned. The possibilities of using registration records to take away law-abiding citizens' arms chills me to the bone. Government entities if not kept in check will abuse citizen rights. Just look at New Orleans.

The laws should focus on people misusing guns, not guns. Violent crime has come way down over the years despite or should I say because more folks are carrying legally than ever before. Gun accidents are way down too. The "solution" of more restrictive gun laws accomplishes what? Frankly I couldn't care less what is the state of "world opinion" concerning our gun laws. I don't think many foreign governments have many laws that we should emulate. We, not they, are the beacon of liberty in the world. Freedom does have it's price. Cradle-to-the-grave security has its price also, and that is personal freedom. I'm not prepared to pay that price.

That last paragraph is so true. Reps for "plain English".

 

[06orange1300c]

I am not saying that we need to lay down and let the government take care of us at all. I was thinking more that we need to consider public opinion (US not foreign). We can "play the game right" and lose everything or we can "play the game well" and walk away winners. Being right (read as a believer in the 2nd and fighting to the last to keep your guns) is fine but you will lose. Today politics is not a game of who is right it is all about perception. Look at the last election. Hell that popularity contest had nothing to do with facts, it was all about who coned the common idiot into checking the box for his name. "We need change!" Nobody even knew what the change was going to be. Momma always told me the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. The fact is, that we are being SLAYED in the public opinion poles by idiots like the guy who says he couldn't pass one either. We are seen as gun nuts, rambo types, crazed idiots, fear filled red necks, nazi's, and manics. We NEED to be seen as politically active, valuable, allies, parents, teachers, family, and friends. We NEED to be popular, friendly, protectors of freedom, who love America and want to be a blessing not a bane on the communities of America.

 

[BE Mike]

I am not saying that we need to lay down and let the government take care of us at all. I was thinking more that we need to consider public opinion (US not foreign). We can "play the game right" and lose everything or we can "play the game well" and walk away winners. Being right (read as a believer in the 2nd and fighting to the last to keep your guns) is fine but you will lose. Today politics is not a game of who is right it is all about perception. Look at the last election. Hell that popularity contest had nothing to do with facts, it was all about who coned the common idiot into checking the box for his name. "We need change!" Nobody even knew what the change was going to be. Momma always told me the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. The fact is, that we are being SLAYED in the public opinion poles by idiots like the guy who says he couldn't pass one either. We are seen as gun nuts, rambo types, crazed idiots, fear filled red necks, nazi's, and manics. We NEED to be seen as politically active, valuable, allies, parents, teachers, family, and friends. We NEED to be popular, friendly, protectors of freedom, who love America and want to be a blessing not a bane on the communities of America.

"I was thinking more that we need to consider public opinion (US not foreign)." You might have been thinking it, but that's not what you said in your post, when you said, "I just think that we need to let the world know that WE want responsible ownership too."

I agree that public image is important for gun owners. That's why the NRA started their "I'm the NRA" ads. What I disagree with you about is that appeasement accomplishes that. We shouldn't give in to those who would trample on our rights. British Prime Minister Chamberlain in 1938 when he signed the Munich Agreement and proudly proclaimed "peace for our time", didn't understand that appeasement doesn't work when faced with someone who wants it all. Make no mistake, we are faced with some in government who want it all, when it comes to gun rights. We should stand firm.

The idea that common folks can own firearms for self-protection, hunting and protection against tyrants, is uniquely American and is guaranteed by the Second Amendment. Too many have sacrificed too much over the centuries to give in to those who would infringe upon that right.

 

[finity]

The fact is, that we are being SLAYED in the public opinion poles by idiots like the guy who says he couldn't pass one either. We are seen as gun nuts, rambo types, crazed idiots, fear filled red necks, nazi's, and manics. We NEED to be seen as politically active, valuable, allies, parents, teachers, family, and friends. We NEED to be popular, friendly, protectors of freedom, who love America and want to be a blessing not a bane on the communities of America.

I'm not sure how many opinion polls you've looked at recently but we're not getting "slayed" at all. Almost every poll I've seen has been hugely slanted toward gun ownership. Look at the HUGE numbers of guns & ammo that has been recently purchased. Carry permits in every state that allows it are through the roof. Not all those new gun owners are " gun nuts, rambo types, crazed idiots, fear filled red necks, nazi's, and manics". I'm sure some of them are but not most.

Registration won't make us safer or look better to the Average Joe because the Average Joe is us, liberals & conservatives, Republicans & Democrats. If not the people in charge of this country (Republicans & Democrats) would have taken them long ago. There's nothing rulers like less than a free armed populous.

 

[Robert Richardson]

If bad guys want guns,they will get them, one way or another,no mater what the law says.

 

[antsi]

So maybe if we made pistols a little harder to get

That's the problem. I don't believe the kind of laws these guys are promoting will really make it harder for criminals to get guns. I don't even believe that is the intent of the law, let alone the effect.

Most of these kind of laws are intended, and have the effect, of making life difficult for law abiding gun owners. The overall aim is to stamp out lawful gun ownership. The criminal angle is just an excuse.

How often are guns purchased a gun shows actually used in crimes? If a criminal couldn't get a gun this way, would he really just give up and say "Oh, well - no gun for me?"

Unless you think that such measures are really going to have a meaningful impact on crime, I don't see how you can support a law that will inconvenience millions of gun owners in the vague hope that maybe a crime might be prevented.

Also, keep in mind another angle of how myriad gun laws are meant to work. If you make gun ownership a massive legal tangle, whereby one can accidentally become a felon in hundreds of seemingly innocent ways, you are creating criminals on purpose. Back under the so-called "assault weapons ban," I could have two perfectly legal AR-15s. But if I took the upper off of one of them and attached it to the lower of the other one, suddenly I am in violation of federal law and subject to 10 years in prison. Mind you, the gun didn't suddenly become more powerful or more destructive - it just had, for example, a flash hider on a lower built after 1994. Functionally it is the exact same gun.

You could have the same thing with this law. A guy has some gun parts, sells them off. One of them, due to bizarre ATF regulations, is determined to be the part that constitutes the gun and he didn't sell it through an FFL. So now he's a big time criminal and needs to go to jail?

Don't be fooled. These kind of laws are not directed at criminals. They are directed at you and me. If they create enough obscure gun laws, sooner or later we will all be criminals in one way or another.

 

[dburkhead]

That's the problem. I don't believe the kind of laws these guys are promoting will really make it harder for criminals to get guns. I don't even believe that is the intent of the law, let alone the effect.

Exactly. While background checks and the like may keep the BG from buying a gun at venue X, the typical person who cannot pass a background check--having been convicted of a felony (don't get me started on proposals to add "no fly list" people to the list of "prohibited persons")--is going to know how to find a gun illegally. At the very least, he's going to know who to ask. After all, having been convicted of a felony he's spent some time with his only social intercourse being with other felons and, therefore, "know someone who knows someone" at the very least.

Background checks don't work. Now, while getting them eliminated is probably not politically achievable at this time, that simple fact is enough reason to resist expanding them further.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Laws are like door locks,they just keep honest people honest

 

[06orange1300c]

I'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that playing the game and appeasement are the same thing. I think that playing the game is the only way to win the game. Those that want your guns will use EVERY possible opening to take them, tax them, or whatever it takes to make them unattainable. The fact is that we need to use whatever means to keep that 2nd amendment guarantee. That includes getting the media on our side. That includes getting schools on our side. That includes getting the general masses to see us as the good guys and to understand that bad people cause crime not guns.