Weapon retention and/or grappling skills

[Jackson]

Unfamiliar with Shivworks to answer but cannot see how grappling would not be involved in any retention/disdisarm

I probably should have said wrestling. From what I've seen, the Shivworks/Craig Douglas types, and many other instructors are taking wrestling controls and movements like arm drags, the 2 on 1 Russian tie, the duck under, and various hand/grip fighting principles common in wrestling and applying them to the weapons environment.

Not to say that most grappling styles don't have similar movements. We only move so many ways. It just looks to be based heavily in wrestling.

Id be interested to see the Kung fu practitioner's approach to the problem.

 

[Amishman44]

So much is involved physically, as well as cardio-vascularly, in grappling events that most, non-trained or non-fit individuals, are exhausted within 30-60-90 seconds, to the point where continuing is nearly impossible, and the more-fit person wins.
Typically, the more physically and cardio-vascularly-fit individual wins, or the one who has grappling skills, such as previous wrestling experience or MMA training.
Back in 2009 (my last year teaching) I had a freshman student who went after another freshman student, in the hallway before school, and I was the only one present and intervened. I got them separated and was in the process of moving the aggressor student into a classroom (out of the hallway) to deescalate the the situation, when the aggressor student turned on me. It was a physical wrestling match for about 30 seconds and then I was able to take him to the ground (thanks to reserve LEO defensive tactics training from a few years prior) and hold him until help arrived. Note: The only punch was thrown by him and he missed. The entire incident didn't last 3 minutes and I was completely drained physically (100% anaerobic exercise) and my carido-vascular system felt 'strained' for 48 hours. I 'wrenched' a shoulder and had to do the work-comp thing, etc. I was an avid cyclist at the time, riding more than 2,000 miles per year and considered myself 'physically-fit' and I couldn't image being involved in an altercation like that nowadays, 15 years later and older, especially when a firearm is involved! The good news is that when mom got fired up about things, the camera in the corner of the hallway, 12-15' away, captured the whole thing, including her son throwing the only punch so no issues there. The SRO's, who reviewed the action, loved the takedown...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I probably should have said wrestling. From what I've seen, the Shivworks/Craig Douglas types, and many other instructors are taking wrestling controls and movements like arm drags, the 2 on 1 Russian tie, the duck under, and various hand/grip fighting principles common in wrestling and applying them to the weapons environment.

Not to say that most grappling styles don't have similar movements. We only move so many ways. It just looks to be based heavily in wrestling.

Id be interested to see the Kung fu practitioner's approach to the problem.

I believe, in my untrained opinion, that if you have seen SEAL stuff from 90s (WC based) that is similar. Triangle concepts, I saw a Craig Douglas video on that (2X speed).

In watching maybe 3 videos at double speed Shivworks may assume too much, e.g. you are able to move around a lot, but it is unfair for me to characterize as I am ignorant.

Remember, WC is 17th century Chinese guerilla combatives so in the traditional "formatting" not much about guns. Retention/disarms for long and short guns, I got come from my teacher's background (Ranger-Ranger, 1st Group as 18C, contracting, working for Angelina Jolie, etc.).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Being inside a room when something like a 357 magnum goes off close by is stunning on your senses. Maybe in the course of a struggle the adrenaline is running so hard you don't notice it, but that's got to count for something.

I've been in a room with a touched off .357. I wouldn't count on it 'stunning' anyone and firing a gun in a grappling contest doesn't put them to flight like it often does when there's separation. It just makes the fight more life and death.

Never personally, but think of how many guys have touched off a rifle inside a vehicle during combat.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

An INGO member and BJJ student has attempted to host a class by a reputable instructor focusing on these things the past two years. Both years he failed to get enough interested students to fill the class. The class was advertising here on INGO and among the local Jiu Jitsu community. There wasn't enough interest. I have ideas about why but no data to support them.


There is a small community of people interested in the entangled gunfight problem who are also willing to put in the work. I would guess the Craig Douglas and Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp's of the world have a lot of the same students coming through their classes repeatedly.

Sounds like Coach was right.

I think Craig does a lot of closed enrollment classes for various institutions. If anybody cares enough, I can ask him if he minds sharing what percentage are new students/returning students/institutional students. I don't know the other two, other than by name and reputation.

 

[Gabriel]

Never personally, but think of how many guys have touched off a rifle inside a vehicle during combat.

We shoot inside junk cars every once in a while at the range at work. It is brutal. I always double up on the ear pro, but that doesn't help with it rattling your skull. It is quite entertaining, though. I can't imagine doing it in combat without earpro.

 

[Gabriel]

Given the existence of commercial lessons for boxing, BJJ, wrestling, etc. there has to be someone offering a reasonable affordable option for punchy-kicky insurance. Or a lot of people are running a business naked.

A group of us just go to the local YMCA and roll several times a week. To make a long story really short, we have been "shunned" from all the local BJJ gyms and ended up just meeting there. I've been injured and just used my regular health insurance. I've never met anyone that was really into BJJ (or any other martial art) that doesn't just deal with an injury and simply return to the mat when it is healed.

 

[Jackson]

A group of us just go to the local YMCA and roll several times a week. To make a long story really short, we have been "shunned" from all the local BJJ gyms and ended up just meeting there. I've been injured and just used my regular health insurance. I've never met anyone that was really into BJJ (or any other martial art) that doesn't just deal with an injury and simply return to the mat when it is healed.

Why have you all been shunned from the BJJ gyms?

 

[Gabriel]

Why have you all been shunned from the BJJ gyms?

I don't care to really throw anyone under the bus (Actually, I do, but I won't here). To put it as vaguely as possible, it's an issue with the owner of the biggest gym in the area. The owners of the few other local BJJ gyms are friends of his, so we aren't really welcome at any of them. I looked for gyms elsewhere, but I just don't want to drive an hour each way three times a week.

I still get good training as things are now, so it's all good. It's just a weird situation.

 

[rem788]

I remember seeing a security cam video of two men grappling over a knife. Actual life and death situation, exactly as discussed here. I remember evaluating the victims movements as the fight evolved. At one point he had two hands on the wrist of the hand holding the knife, with his back to the assailant, and if he could have extended his arm and locked his elbow he could hold the knife hand away from his body. It is difficult to overcome a locked elbow. Then the other elbow becomes your weapon. Or he could twist the arm with the knife and again work to disarm. There were several options but the victim was not able to overcome the assailant and eventually he was stabbed several times and did not survive. I wrestled in high school and believe there are many movements we practiced that could be used in this type of situation. As others have stated, training and practice is essential.

 

[JAL]

. . .

Never personally, but think of how many guys have touched off a rifle inside a vehicle during combat.

I've seen the consequences of this. The ringing in the young dissipates and disappears within a week or so. However, it causes permanent hearing damage that often doesn't show up to its full extent until the soldier is 50-60 years old. Nearly all WWII and Korean War vets that saw combat have enormous hearing loss in old age. Up through the Cold War and heading into Desert Storm, hearing protection wasn't emphasized to the extent it should have been. Didn't start to see it until about 1984, and it eventually ramped up with increased emphasis. The military was finally starting to pay attention to VA hearing loss claims. Dept of Defense and VA Admin have never been very closely tied together with a feedback loop.

Every service member has an exit physical to document any possible service related injury, and part of it is a hearing test. It never captures the latent damage that emerges decades later, and the VA is notorious for pulling that out claiming the service member's hearing was perfect when discharged.

I know if I ever touch off a 12 gauge or AR-15 in any caliber inside my home, I can kiss the hearing I still have goodbye. Better than moving into the grassroots hotel.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've seen the consequences of this.

The context is "stunning the senses" at the time of firing. Nobody is claiming it's best practice or doesn't cause issues down the road.

 

[JAL]

The context is "stunning the senses" at the time of firing. Nobody is claiming it's best practice or doesn't cause issues down the road.

"Stunning the senses" as described here doesn't occur with small arms in military grunt operations. Touching just one round off would be rare. If the shooting starts, it's going to be quite a few rounds. In the heat of the moment, inside a vehicle or a building, without any hearing protection, it significantly dulls hearing making audible communication with others very difficult for the duration. Out in the open is bad enough. Inside an enclosed space is an order of magnitude more severe. Not something one consciously thinks about in the thick of it. You just shout louder and use hand/arm plus other visual signals whenever possible. It's afterward that you notice the magnitude of dulled hearing and ears ringing.

Something much bigger in close proximity causing a significant physical concussion can stun the senses, such as an aerial bomb, artillery round. mortar round, or a grenade. Proximity of detonation is everything regarding concussion effect. Movies and TV do not capture any of its effect. The entire body feels it viscerally in the gut and the ground shudders. The scene near the end of Private Ryan in which the Captain is briefly in a buzzing daze with impaired hearing is the closest I've seen to the immediate physical aftereffect of a severe concussive explosion.

Quite a bit of military powered equipment is loud. Helicopters, armored vehicles, power generators, etc. Inside a vehicle, or when clearing a building, the three flange red or worse yet, the yellow sponge ear plugs help some, but not enough. Hand and arm, and other visual signals are important. You can't count on someone hearing you, especially in enclosed spaces. I had to harp on soldiers ALWAYS having their earplugs in when operationally deployed. They were not very comfortable for long periods of time. This was in the 1970's - 1980's era. The situation since has improved significantly since then.

 

[KokomoDave]

Mercop used to put on a hell of a class. He has traveled here on occasion and I am still in touch with him. Can we get enough takers?

 

[Jackson]

Mercop used to put on a hell of a class. He has traveled here on occasion and I am still in touch with him. Can we get enough takers?

Can you provide some details like a course description, duration, expected cost, etc?

 

[KokomoDave]

Can you provide some details like a course description, duration, expected cost, etc?

I'll have to get with George & ask him if he still wants to do this. He has been training K9s for a couple years and not sure if he wants his ass kicked anymore. Yes, it's that kind of physical exertion for him even tho he is in a full redman suit.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

"Stunning the senses" as described here doesn't occur with small arms in military grunt operations.

Right. That's, quite literally, what I said and why I used it as an example when the notion that a handgun discharge in an enclosed space would do so.

 

[bwframe]

Mercop used to put on a hell of a class. He has traveled here on occasion and I am still in touch with him. Can we get enough takers?

Modern Combative Systems alumni here also. I'd certainly recommend George!

I learned skills that I take with me every day. On top of leaving behind fear of close in threats with blades, guns, etc.

One of BBI's IMPD buddies darn near knocked me out. I learned from that too.

 

[Jackson]

On top of leaving behind fear of close in threats with blades, guns, etc.

This kind of training usually leaves me with more fear of a guy right on top of me with a knife.

 

[bwframe]

This kind of training usually leaves me with more fear of a guy right on top of me with a knife.

I don't have to tell you anything about it my friend. You already know that, fear or not, it's better to have knowledge of how to deal with a threat than have to make it up as you go.

Probably gonna get cut, but a working a tested plan for close in defense is 100% better than "I'll just have to shoot them, because I'm just to old, crippled or fat to fight."

Lotta folks refuse to even the address the idea that their hardware is not the panacea that will solve all problems.