What am I doing wrong?

[17 squirrel]

It's actually not the gauge that allows you to use the ammo in 2 different guns though. If you are making ammo for 2 different firearms, a full length resize is required, whether you have a gauge or not. The gauge is simply a little tube that says, "yeah, this is up to SAAMI spec"... it doesn't actually "allow" you to do anything. The dies and reloading process is what allows you to use those cartridges in more than 1 firearm.

As for why you don't need to bring a firearm to your loading bench to get the best possible load for it, it's because you aren't looking for the accuracy that he is. You are going for run of the mill ammo while he is building the best possible ammo for his particular rifle.

Different strokes for different folks... but really all a case gauge does is say hey, this will probably fit in your gun... there have been instances where some firearms chambers are tighter than SAAMI spec's and people have had troubles because they went off of the gauge rather than their precision built firearm.

Hey, thanks for helping me understand why I shoot average ammunition.


And how is it Companys like Federal Gold Metal Match 308,30-06,300 win and on and on ( and many other match grade ammo ) ammunition tends to shoot sub 1" groups from the factory and they don't have anyone action to setup their dies ?
how do they know how to do that ?

 

[ckcollins2003]

Hey, thanks for helping me understand why I shoot average ammunition.


And how is it Companies like Federal Gold Metal Match 308,30-06,300 win and on and on ( and many other match grade ammo ) ammunition tends to shoot sub 1" groups from the factory and they don't have anyone action to setup their dies ?
how do they know how to do that ?

Hey, you're welcome. All sarcasm and ignorance aside, I wasn't trying to sound like an *******, I'm just saying... if you are going through the reloading process right you don't need a gauge. I've shot my .308 reloads from 2 different rifles and my .40 out of many different handguns and I've never even thought about buying a gauge.

As for the match grade ammo, while someone like yourself is obviously okay with 1" groups at 100 meters, other people want that 1" group at 300 meters. I've never seen anyone win a long range competition with factory ammo... I could be completely wrong and just not looked hard enough, but the people at the top of the lists use handloads and have spent tons of time getting everything exactly where they want it.

Didn't want to start an argument since it's the internet, as I think a gauge can come in handy for some people if they really want to spend the money on it, I just believe that if you are doing everything properly you won't ever need one and if you do need a gauge, whatever you are putting it in should be your gauge, once again, just one man's opinion..

 

[oldpink]

[...]
Didn't want to start an argument since it's the internet, as I think a gauge can come in handy for some people if they really want to spend the money on it, I just believe that if you are doing everything properly you won't ever need one and if you do need a gauge, whatever you are putting it in should be your gauge, once again, just one man's opinion..

Agreed
No need for being confrontational.
I don't have a case gauge, but I'm not about to tell someone else that he's all wet for having one.
I don't think they're essential at all, but they could come in handy for someone wanting to ensure that his reloads will fit a variety of different guns chambered for the same round.
Not everyone loads for precision in identical fashion.
I prefer to use a Stoney Point bullet depth gauge to allow seating the bullet just short of the lands in my bolt gun.
There are tons of different ways that benchresters work up their loads, namely outside neck turning, primer pocket uniforming, weighing/sorting their brass, and all sorts of other methods best left to the guys who make their bones in the fractions of a millimeter.
Yes, Federal makes great ammo, some of which really does do minute of angle in a variety of high quality guns, but an experienced reloader should still be able to outdo it by a noticeable degree in his specific rifle.
Federal has the equipment and expertise to make theirs work in a selection of guns, the kind of expertise and equipment that the average reloader just can't afford.
Just be happy with what you do, and don't ridicule others for their own methodology.

 

[straight-shooter]

Ok, so now somehow we've migrated from producing average pistol ammunition to match grade rifle loads. Funny how sometimes things can head down a long road and end up something completely different than what was originally being discussed. Although I will say the thread is educational and worth reading since it has gone a good direction.

Yes, I agree that a gauge's main use is for ammunition suited for multiple handguns and rifles but I too have better tools for measuring chambers in my bolt rifles to produce match grade ammo. So justifying a gauge for match rifles doesn't hold water and I think we all realize this.

 

[OutdoorDad]

I just ordered a gauge for .45acp and 5.56 last week!!

Ive only got one .45 pistol currently. But that may change. And I don't feel like pulling it out of the safe every time.

I ordered the 5.56 because I've never loaded for it before, and don't feel like running live ammo through my rifle to check for feeding function in my basement. Seems like $20 well spent to me.

 

[17 squirrel]

Hey, you're welcome. All sarcasm and ignorance aside, I wasn't trying to sound like an *******, I'm just saying... if you are going through the reloading process right you don't need a gauge. I've shot my .308 reloads from 2 different rifles and my .40 out of many different handguns and I've never even thought about buying a gauge.

As for the match grade ammo, while someone like yourself is obviously okay with 1" groups at 100 meters, other people want that 1" group at 300 meters. I've never seen anyone win a long range competition with factory ammo... I could be completely wrong and .

. lol.. Not butthurt here at all myself nor am I offended.
I don't know where you came up with I settle for average ammunition,
You have truly no idea what processes I go through when loading for different firearms that I own.
Now back to a case gauge, I use one for certain firearms because I know that case will fully chamber in the firearms I have loaded it for.
If I run one of my Dillons for a few hours and that weekend I have a pistol match that my son and I will be shooting in.
I will get my son to run each round through the correct case gauge. And with that time spent I know for a fact every loaded round we take to that match will chamber in the firearms we are bringing with us. To me time well spent.
It makes it all worth while when at almost every pistol match you will hear or see someone with reloads and sometimes new ammunition that will not chamber in there firearm. It happens at almost every pistol match I go to.
It's great that you don't see the need for a gauge. But for some calibers and some ammunition it works well for me.
It's the same thing different reloaders have with using small base dies when needed and a Taper Crimp die with auto loading pistol rounds.

Now back to you saying you have shot your 308 reloads out of two different rifles and you had no issues. I would bet that both rifles were bolt action.
I load range ( goof off ) & hunting ammo in 308 for at least 6 different rifles.
My kids 700 deer gun, a 740 remi that I hunt with in crappy weather, a remmi 700 pss, a HK91, a Browning Lever action and a Cooper single shot.
Now with the crossover between bolt ,lever and pump actions I load basic ammo with 308 small base dies and a standard OAL. And after loading I run them all through a case gauge, every round has always fully chambered in each different rifle.
Every time.
I learned decades ago after driving to the range or a match and all the sudden
( ***** ) the action will not close and or its locked up.
I don't care about shorter case life with using Small Base dies. You read here on this forum all the time, hey guys what am I doing wrong, my loads will not chamber sometimes or I have a live round stuck and I can't open the action.
A simple case gauge cures most of that. It's one of the things I ask guys that are having chambering issues, hey did you run these through a case gauge ? And the answer always is either Nope or what's a case gauge.


Now if you would like to talk about loading ammunition for shooting high power , F Class or perhaps BPCR silhouettes I can certainly do that sir.

And to the OP, I apologize for the hijack sir.

 

[Broom_jm]

And how is it Companys like Federal Gold Metal Match 308,30-06,300 win and on and on ( and many other match grade ammo ) ammunition tends to shoot sub 1" groups from the factory and they don't have anyone action to setup their dies ?
how do they know how to do that ?

Since you asked: There are many loads out there that tend to shoot very well in a variety of guns. This has been studied and a formula created by Dan Newberry called "OCW", or optimum charge weight. You should check it out, since you load 308 for 6 different rifles. It could allow you to have very good accuracy from all of them and may even let you use different types of brass in the process.

I just ordered a gauge for .45acp and 5.56 last week!!

Ive only got one .45 pistol currently. But that may change. And I don't feel like pulling it out of the safe every time.

I ordered the 5.56 because I've never loaded for it before, and don't feel like running live ammo through my rifle to check for feeding function in my basement. Seems like $20 well spent to me.

Why would you pull it out of the safe "every time"? Once you know what works, you'd never need your barrel to act as a gauge again. No disrespect, but once you know the loads you're making work, either with the gauge or your barrel, isn't that just a $20 paper weight?

 

[XtremeVel]

Why would you pull it out of the safe "every time"? Once you know what works, you'd never need your barrel to act as a gauge again. No disrespect, but once you know the loads you're making work, either with the gauge or your barrel, isn't that just a $20 paper weight?

The gage is not meant to check if I am doing my job right but rather to check any round I am suspicious of due to "normal " sizing not being sufficient. A earlier Glock barrel in .40 S&W and unknown original of brass in my experience has been nothing more than a royal PITA on the bench. If a shooter only has a platform that is well known to have a chamber not very well supported and considerably over sized, the gage gives him a proper dimensional check on the outside dim's of the case.

Also, many shooters, myself included, pick up brass at public ranges that have been fired out of other chambers. I know it's easy to say " just size it properly ", but there are many barrels out there in .40 S&W that do not support the web and I have yet to find a typical sizing die that fixes that bulge. Lee offers their " bulge buster " kit for this problem, but I prefer keeping this all on a level that I continue to actually enjoy loading. This is exactly why I eventually got out of .40 S&W and into .357 sig. This is not an issue in their .357 barrels and I don't for see ever having the need for a gage in that caliber.

I highly suspect this is exactly what they OP ran into. Note he only had issues with about 20% of his loads while using bought brass fired out of other platforms. All his rounds drop fine into HIS barrel , but the gage threw up a flag on that 20%. The loads will work fine for the OP, but it's only a positive that the OP now is more aware of this circumstance in case he would ever choose to add another platform.

Bottom line is how would a loader know if the ammo they are making would function in other platforms without a known " standard " ? Dropping the round into the chamber ALONG with checking the outside dim's with calipers would work just as well as a gage, but I would contend the gage is much faster. I also would much prefer to put the wear on the $15.00 gage than my much more expensive Brown and Sharpes. And for full discloser, I , by no means own a gage for every caliber I load. Actually, I only own one for 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP...

 

[17 squirrel]

Since you asked: There are many loads out there that tend to shoot very well in a variety of guns. This has been studied and a formula created by Dan Newberry called "OCW", or optimum charge weight. You should check it out, since you load 308 for 6 different rifles. It could allow you to have very good accuracy from all of them and may even let you use different types of brass in the process.


I will read what Mr Newberry has to say, Thanks

What I can't figure out how two of you guys seem to think I have accuracy issues with my reloading. I have never said I'm having accuracy problems with any firearms that I own.
What I said was
"I load range ( goof off ) & hunting ammo in 308 for at least 6 different rifles.
My kids 700 deer gun, a 740 remi that I hunt with in crappy weather, a remmi 700 pss, a HK91, a Browning Lever action and a Cooper single shot.
And I also said
"Now if you would like to talk about loading ammunition for shooting high power , F Class or perhaps BPCR silhouettes I can certainly discuss it.

 

[Contender]

If someone wants a gauge use it. By my way of thinking if you are fl resizing unless the die, chamber or cartridge lenght which I check with calipers is not made to sammi spec the round should chamber. Guess a gauge might narrow down a problem if one exists.

 

[Broom_jm]

Bottom line is how would a loader know if the ammo they are making would function in other platforms without a known " standard " ? Dropping the round into the chamber ALONG with checking the outside dim's with calipers would work just as well as a gage, but I would contend the gage is much faster. I also would much prefer to put the wear on the $15.00 gage than my much more expensive Brown and Sharpes. And for full discloser, I , by no means own a gage for every caliber I load. Actually, I only own one for 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP...

Bottom line: Outside of 40S&W (glocked) and maybe semi-auto rifle loads, what cartridge would you ever "need" the gauge to verify rounds with? You said you don't ever see having a need for a gauge in 357 Sig...why is that? The only round I would ever buy a gauge for is 40S&W. Everything else I load, it's just a solution in search of a problem.

 

[straight-shooter]

SELL THE GAUGES! THEIR EVIL I TELL YOU!

 

[XtremeVel]

Bottom line: Outside of 40S&W (glocked) and maybe semi-auto rifle loads, what cartridge would you ever "need" the gauge to verify rounds with? You said you don't ever see having a need for a gauge in 357 Sig...why is that? The only round I would ever buy a gauge for is 40S&W. Everything else I load, it's just a solution in search of a problem.

Rather than use the word " need ", maybe saying "strongly suggest" would be more fitting...

I would strongly suggest a gage for any reloader (especially a newer reloader ) for loading any semi handgun caliber where the platform is known to have a larger chamber and /or support issues, especially if the reloader only owns this (1) platform and thinks there is a good chance of adding additional in the future.

As for .357 sig, the (2) Glock barrels I own and the (2) aftermarket are dimensionally close enough I have never had the use for one. I have 100% confidence if the load drops in one barrel, it will drop into any barrel I might grab. Also, in this caliber unlike the .40 S&W, and to some degree 9mm and .45 ACP, I have 100% control of the history of my brass. In the other calibers, I ALWAYS come home from the range with more brass than I went with, which I have found leads to some of the issues I speak of.

As for 9mm or .45 ACP... The only time anymore I ever grab the gage is if I "feel" something suspect working the lever... I could actually sell these gages because I feel I have learned what barrel to grab out of all the platforms I currently have. In 9mm for example, I know if my load drops into the XD and KKM aftermarket barrel, it'll function in all 7 platforms I own. In 9mm, I have found rather than being a brass dim issue from an oversized chamber, it's usually an issue with the combination of different wall thickness of the brass and crimp. Of all my 7 platforms, the XD and KKM barrels are BY FAR less forgiving.

 

[Broom_jm]

Does anyone happen to know the history of case gauges? I can't help but wonder how many millions of rounds were loaded before the idea of a gauge was even thought of, let alone before they were available on the market. Honestly, I don't think the use of gauges was very widespread at all, prior to glocked 40S&W brass and the recent influx of new loaders.

 

[Mark 1911]

Some pistol dies only work the top of the brass, the concept is to get a little tighter fit in the chamber. Some dies work the entire length of the case.

I recently had this problem with some .45 acp cases. I bought some very nice Redding Dual ring dies. The dual ring dies size the case a little tighter toward the mouth and larger near the base. When I used the dual ring dies, some of the cases would not drop all the way into a Wilson case gage, and some of those cases had a slight bulge near the base. Then I bought some standard single ring Redding dies, problem went away. The single ring die works the entire length of the case with the same ring, so the base of the case gets sized down closer to spec. Problem also went away when I used my good ol' Lee resizer die. The dual ring dies seem to work fine most of the time. My guess is that the brass that needed the tighter sizing die may have been previously loaded with a heavier charge, which then seems to require a little more work on the brass to get it back to spec - requiring a die that works the brass all the way down to the base.

What kind of dies are you using?

 

[XtremeVel]

Does anyone happen to know the history of case gauges? I can't help but wonder how many millions of rounds were loaded before the idea of a gauge was even thought of, let alone before they were available on the market. Honestly, I don't think the use of gauges was very widespread at all, prior to glocked 40S&W brass and the recent influx of new loaders.

Can't answer the question on the history, but I would agree on everything you say here. I would also add in the case of the Glock, the issue only gets more magnified with MANY because once they see this, the first reaction is to sling shot the other way by adding a aftermarket barrel and this at times compounds the issue even more simply because some options out there are marketed as " competition " barrels are too tight and/or "short chambered". Now this person has one chamber with .015/.018 clearance around a loaded round and another barrel that is probably a bit too tight. This is when I find a nice medium such as the gage comes in handy. Always seems like many Glock owners looking into reloading consider the aftermarket barrel option for either the bulge issue or because they aren't comfortable shooting cast loads through the factory polygonal barrel.

 

[XtremeVel]

Some pistol dies only work the top of the brass, the concept is to get a little tighter fit in the chamber. Some dies work the entire length of the case.

I recently had this problem with some .45 acp cases. I bought some very nice Redding Dual ring dies. The dual ring dies size the case a little tighter toward the mouth and larger near the base. When I used the dual ring dies, some of the cases would not drop all the way into a Wilson case gage, and some of those cases had a slight bulge near the base. Then I bought some standard single ring Redding dies, problem went away. The single ring die works the entire length of the case with the same ring, so the base of the case gets sized down closer to spec. Problem also went away when I used my good ol' Lee resizer die. The dual ring dies seem to work fine most of the time. My guess is that the brass that needed the tighter sizing die may have been previously loaded with a heavier charge, which then seems to require a little more work on the brass to get it back to spec - requiring a die that works the brass all the way down to the base.

What kind of dies are you using?

Have only tried Lee and RCBS dies here. I think much depends on where the bulge is. If the chamber is severely unsupported back by the web, I don't know how any typical die can take that out short of pushing the case through the entire die like the Lee bulge buster kit does. Much of it also depends on how forgiving your chamber is.. My worst cases fired out of my worst Glock chamber would load fine with a traditional Lee sizer but only if I fired them out of the same barrel. Now for disclosure, I wouldn't say my worst barrel was as bad as the even earlier one that would put the " smiley " on the web, but rather my worst had over .015 clearance over the loaded round.

I've also have seen SOMEWHAT similar issue in .45 ACP at the range. I dont know what platorm in this case they came from, but the were bulged enough typical sizing didn't get down far enough.

More common then .45, but not as common as .40 S&W is 9mm. Again, not sure what does it, something fired from open bolt maybe ???, but I do often times find empties at the public range also bulged at the web area.

I no longer load .40, but one of my sons jobs at the range is to sort brass. I give him and example of a fired 9mm or .45 case fired out of my barrel and he knows I don't want any range pickup brass in my can that doesn't seat into my gage as deep as the example I gave him. Yes, I even use my gages at the range also...