What Are The Odds?

[Trigger Time]

And even with all this evidence, we still have the pro genocide, pro torture crowd among us.

Terrorist are in a lot different category than innocent women and children

 

[printcraft]

And even with all this evidence, we still have the pro genocide, pro torture crowd among us.

Man, that is such a logical fallacy I don't even know where to start.

The people in Gitmo are the people, who if given the chance, would commit another holocaust.

 

[hornadylnl]

Man, that is such a logical fallacy I don't even know where to start.

The people in Gitmo are the people, who if given the chance, would commit another holocaust.

So let's get out front of them and commit genocide against them.

 

[Twangbanger]

So let's get out front of them and commit genocide against them.

You for once have a really good, informative thread going here, LnL, and I'm proud of your personal growth. You're presenting your own, valuable content, instead of just sitting in the shadows nitpicking the content offered by others. Don't risk turning it into just another urination contest from the political forums, with logical fallacies like the one above.

Just a suggestion. You have a good thing going. Leave your butthurt about the war on terror for the other six threads a week devoted to the subject. This is special & deserves its own thread.

 

[Hoosierdood]

And even with all this evidence, we still have the pro genocide, pro torture crowd among us.

Seriously? I don't know anyone else who would try to compare the Holocaust to Gitmo. Always gotta turn everything into a political argument don't you?


For the record, I have been to the Holocaust Museum 4 different times. It is just as moving every time I go.

 

[bucktowner]

Just went through the Holocaust Museum this fall. We didn't want to start off the day with doom and gloom...so we waited until after lunch. MISTAKE. The tour starts on the top floor and you work your way down the building through the exhibits. We did ONE AND MAYBE A HALF OF THE NEXT FLOOR...and then the lady was walking around saying the museum was about to close. We were reading almost every word of the exhibits, then we had to rush through the rest before they closed. For those that haven't been there, leave yourself plenty of time to go through this one.

Very powerful. Different things will strike different people...my wife was floored by the shoes. What got me...was the traincar.

I always wondered how a person like Hitler could ever come to power. The top floor did a great job of taking you through the political environment, setting, and posture of Germany post WWI, and answered all my questions as to how Hilter gained control. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[hornadylnl]

You for once have a really good, informative thread going here, LnL, and I'm proud of your personal growth. You're presenting your own, valuable content, instead of just sitting in the shadows nitpicking the content offered by others. Don't risk turning it into just another urination contest from the political forums, with logical fallacies like the one above.

Just a suggestion. You have a good thing going. Leave your butthurt about the war on terror for the other six threads a week devoted to the subject. This is special & deserves its own thread.

Seriously? I don't know anyone else who would try to compare the Holocaust to Gitmo. Always gotta turn everything into a political argument don't you?


For the record, I have been to the Holocaust Museum 4 different times. It is just as moving every time I go.

It's the continual turn em to glass and dehumanizing rhetoric that will allow another holocaust to happen. If some got their way, hitter would look like a child with an ant hill and a magnifying glass.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I want to pipe up as a smart alec and say "approximately three-thousand, seven-hundred and twenty to one", but that would be disrespectful to the subject material.

Instead, I think I'll just plan a trip here CANDLES: Shining a light on the Holocaust and Eva Kor. Illuminating the world with hope, healing, respect, and responsibility. | CANDLES Holocaust Museum and Education Center

 

[printcraft]

It's the continual turn em to glass and dehumanizing rhetoric that will allow another holocaust to happen. If some got their way, hitter would look like a child with an ant hill and a magnifying glass.

No, it is turning a blind eye toward those who would commit a genocide given half a chance that will allow another holocaust to happen.
I can't wrap my mind around your disconnect with this.
You know what you would be going to see in a museum had bad and evil American not gotten involved in WW2 and Hitler won?
The only thing left of the jewish people ......... their freaking bones.

 

[hornadylnl]

No, it is turning a blind eye toward those who would commit a genocide given half a chance that will allow another holocaust to happen.
I can't wrap my mind around your disconnect with this.
You know what you would be going to see in a museum had bad and evil American not gotten involved in WW2 and Hitler won?
The only thing left of the jewish people ......... their freaking bones.

No disconnect at all. I've never advocated against self defense.

The biggest lesson I took from the museum is never again. Some Jewish people actually wanted to bomb their own to destroy the concentration camps. IE, the thousands killed would justify the shutting down of the camps and possibly millions saved.

The holocaust started as rhetoric. They didn't build the camps in Monday and start feeding the ovens on Tuesday.

The rhetoric often espoused today has long gone past self defense and into genocide on a level never seen before. Many won't be happy until over 1 BILLION are murdered. And they advocate their government do it on their behalf so they can keep their conscience clean.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I have been to Dachau. It is something you never forget for sure. Nothing like seeing an oven or a gas chamber to sear into your soul how evil man can be.

 

[dsol]

I have been to Dachau. It is something you never forget for sure. Nothing like seeing an oven or a gas chamber to sear into your soul how evil man can be.

I have been there too when I was in Munich back in 1994. The locals warned me not to go there on a rainy day, but the day I had off, it was dreary and rainy. I came out of there feeling like someone stomped on my soul. Just unfathomable how evil some can be.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I was there the summer of 1995. I was about to start my senior year in high school. I was a kid who had the world figured out and didn't need to learn anything from anyone. Then I toured Dachau after visiting a WWII battle site. The site had been replanted with pine trees in geometric rows. Numerous grave markers and a particular monument that held the remains of an American soldier who was killed while trying to help a wounded German. In the middle of absolute hell it was still possible to be human and show compassion, even at the risk of your own life. How sad that we often don't do little things to help someone, yet this man was able to sacrifice everything to help his enemy.

The sites are free to tour as they want people to learn. I think if I went back now I would cry a lot more than I did that day. I remember walking around for hours in silence, saying a few things here and there under my breath to friends as we came across things. Seeing the gates written "Arbeit macht frei" (Works makes you free).

If you ever get a chance to send your kids to Europe during high school, do it. Make sure it's not just a party though.

 

[Bill of Rights]

And even with all this evidence, we still have the pro genocide, pro torture crowd among us.

I can only speak for myself, and I'll say it's only on rare occasions that I support the "turn the whole region to glass" theory, usu. after someone commits another atrocity. It's fleeting, however, and I know it's a desire for revenge talking, or, like the line from "The Untouchables":
"He sends one o' yours to the hospital, you send one o' his to th' morgue!"
I recognize that for what it is. Conversely, though, I look at the concept of, when we catch a terrorist (and not exclusively Arab/Muslim/etc.,) I think that if we have reason to believe s/he has information to save lives, we should do whatever is necessary to get that information. I don't mean hypothetical Aziz, who happened to be walking by a building when it was raided and got busted, I mean like KSM or OBL. Specific people who are known and take pride in the fact that they committed acts of atrocity.
The example that comes to mind is, "What would you do to a specific person caught, who knew where your daughter was being held captive and how long she had before she was to have (fill in horrible act) done to her?" I know a few of the things I'd be willing to do, and they sicken me and make me question my own civility. (look back through my posts... I don't often say something "makes me sick". This is significant.) But to save a life, specifically hers or my wife's? That particular person would be wishing for death. Don't f*** with my family. Is that torture? I have to admit it is, and unapologetically so. It's a dark place. I don't look at it often, but I know it's there. For them, I'd go there and wallow in it, and live with the nightmares.

I need to go take a shower now. Just those thoughts make me feel filthy.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I have always thought torture was simply for sadistic purposes with no intended utility other than to inflict pain. I do not see water boarding and many other enhanced "techniques" as torture if it's done to help others. Maybe that's hypocritical, but my mind and heart can handle that.

As BoR said, we would be willing to do some things to get our kids back. That in my mind is not torture.