What is the deal with all of the small bucks???

[byggpoppa]

Hello All!

I was directed here as it seems someone likes to toss my name around. Funny how every time the "one buck rule" is brought up I am the sole person responsible! Now that is alot of power with our department of Natural Resources. There was support from sportsmen and women to improve the age and sex ratio that is why we have a one buck rule today. After the first five years the support grew from 56% to 72%, now the question is how did just one sportsman(me) garner all those Hoosier deer hunters?

As far as our previous deer biologist who FireHawk claims to have talked to.......... He stated in public that Indiana would never get a annual harvest of male antlered deer below 56% of 1 1/2 year old bucks. Uh, Jim (deer biologist) it is now stable at 40%!!!! I have nothing against our previous deer biologist other than he was a traditional deer biologist. If it was brown and had a white tail it was a good deer. The deer hunters of Indiana wanted more older age deer and now we have them.

To answer the original post. There is nothing wrong with what you are seeing, it takes some young bucks to survive to get to older age class. The older age deer are there, what happens as it does some years is the gun season opened in the beginning of the breeding phase. Many of the older age bucks are with does. Next weekend we will slay those big bucks as they will again be looking for love. Last week warm weather all but shut down daylight movement. You need to realize that older deer have learned the mating game, they set back let the youngsters chase. They are conserving energy, when the time comes they walk in and take control.

Again I'm not a deer biologist, but managing deer is easy, managing deer hunters is usually the problem.

Wow now that's one hell of a first post!

 

[snapping turtle]

We always have 4 pointer and scrub bucks around. I don't shoot them, but that does not mean they don't get harvested.

I can tell you that in Madison county the rut is on for the mature does. The big does have a buck in tow ( saw that twice in the last two days,)

the medium sized and small doe are not yet ready as I sat for 2 whole days with medium and small does around all day within 100 yards and not a single cruising big buck came around. A small fork horn chased a bit on one doe. Her fawn and her came back in a circle about 1.5 hours later and laid back down in the same spot they left. Up to 7 does around me and not a single buck other than the fork horn.

I am going to still hunt monday morn and see if i can catch a couple taking a little nap after sex.

 

[IndyMonkey]

Wow now that's one hell of a first post!

Wait until Jack Ryan reads his post.

Joes a trophy hunter and is managing the deer heard to be just that. Im not saying its good or bad as I do not care either way.

There are downfalls to QDM that we are reaping.

One is the explosive popularity of leasing land.

 

[jbwhttail]

By next Saturday the first phase of the breeding will be tailing off, bucks will be traveling far and wide to find a doe who is receptive. We have always found the 18th thru the 22nd to be prime time to kill a "big un".

I hunted 11 hours on Saturday (break for lunch at 12:30) I quit at sundown as I don't like any late night blood trails. On Saturday I saw 18 different bucks chasing or tending does. Also I saw 18 does, of the bucks it was 2:1 2 1/2+ year old bucks. This morning I hunted until 11:30am, 14 bucks, 13 does, of the 13 antlered bucks 2 were spikes!

IndyMonkey is correct on our farm and those surrounding us we mange for "mature" deer. It is not for everyone but it sure is fun to let a deer walk knowing he has 100% better chance of survival. Once our neighbors saw the result of quality deer management they climbed on board.

Here is an example of QDM and working with neighbors.... This morning I was hunting a stand that is near a neighbors fence(130 yards). I look up to see an absoloute "gagger" buck huge tines and long main beams. No time to get a shot, five minutes later he is in a shooting lane. I look at his shoulder thru the scope and see his head is behind an oak tree. Problem is the tree is on the fence line. I lowered the muzzleloader, if I expect my neighbors to respect my property and gentleman rules I must do the same.

Bring on Jack Ryan............... he has a problem with any rule of order.....

 

[loony1]

Hello All!



As far as our previous deer biologist who FireHawk claims to have talked to..........

 

[firehawk1]

managing deer hunters is usually the problem.

And THAT is where you get into trouble with ALOT of us. Who are YOU to tell me I need managed? That kind of arrogance is why your name comes up every now and then.

You and I went back and forth over this issue over on ArcheryTalk a few years back. No need to rehash it here.

loony1, no one was "served" here. I assure you my conversation did take place with the biologist. I could care less about this precentage or that precentage. I simply enjoy being out in the woods hunting.

Everyone is going to be "served" here in Indiana if the new proposed reg's go into effect. Get used to LESS time to be able to hunt, unless you're a bow hunter. Be prepared for the "prime" hunting locations to be all leased out so us "average Joes" can hunt public land, or family owned land only.

Be careful what you wish for......... sometimes it will come back and bite you in the a**.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Bring on Jack Ryan............... he has a problem with any rule of order.....

Wow Joe, haven't seen you in years or even read a post of yours. Good to see you are still fan and constant reader. I appreciate your opinion but I don't think it really matters until you buy the messege board.

Far as the one buck rule goes, in my opinion, it hasn't accomplished a thing other than take a huntion opportunity away from Indiana hunters. There were plenty of deer before it was in affect and there are apparently still enough the state thinks there are too many. There were plenty of ignorant young bucks before the rule and there are plenty now apparently from the posts I read in this thread. You just can't go hunt them if you've shot one with a bow already and you can't go hunt them later with a bow if you shoot one now with a gun.

Who ever got it in, it's not accomplished a thing but give people a reason to stop hunting after they've killed any kind of buck.

If that was the goal, good job.

 

[blackoak]

Everyone is going to be "served" here in Indiana if the new proposed reg's go into effect. .

Pretty certain the new proposed rules have been tossed out into the nearest landfill.

 

[bwframe]

Who ever got it in, it's not accomplished a thing but give people a reason to stop hunting after they've killed any kind of buck.

If that was the goal, good job.

Or to not end up taking any dear, cause they are waiting on the right ONE (because there is only ONE.) Take any old buck with a bow and you might as well plan on hunting from the couch for the rest of this year.

OR, the thing we don't dare talk about. How many good, decent, honest, ethical hunters has this turned into "poachers?"

 

[blackoak]

Wait till Indiana deer hunting get like Illinois with a Booner behind every tree. You think leasing is bad now in this state.

The biggest downfall is that there are organized hunting groups in this state that want to force the entire state into practicing QDM by changing rules and regulation to fit their style of hunting. I'm a firm believer in passing small bucks but if another hunter wants to shoot one, I'm not going to bash him for doing it.
QDM is a good thing for people that own, or lease their hunting land and want practice it, but the majority of the states hunters can not do this and shouldn't be forced by law into practicing QDM

 

[blackoak]

By next Saturday the first phase of the breeding will be tailing off, bucks will be traveling far and wide to find a doe who is receptive. We have always found the 18th thru the 22nd to be prime time to kill a "big un".

I hunted 11 hours on Saturday (break for lunch at 12:30) I quit at sundown as I don't like any late night blood trails. On Saturday I saw 18 different bucks chasing or tending does. Also I saw 18 does, of the bucks it was 2:1 2 1/2+ year old bucks. This morning I hunted until 11:30am, 14 bucks, 13 does, of the 13 antlered bucks 2 were spikes!

IndyMonkey is correct on our farm and those surrounding us we mange for "mature" deer. It is not for everyone but it sure is fun to let a deer walk knowing he has 100% better chance of survival. Once our neighbors saw the result of quality deer management they climbed on board.

Here is an example of QDM and working with neighbors.... This morning I was hunting a stand that is near a neighbors fence(130 yards). I look up to see an absoloute "gagger" buck huge tines and long main beams. No time to get a shot, five minutes later he is in a shooting lane. I look at his shoulder thru the scope and see his head is behind an oak tree. Problem is the tree is on the fence line. I lowered the muzzleloader, if I expect my neighbors to respect my property and gentleman rules I must do the same.

Bring on Jack Ryan............... he has a problem with any rule of order.....

Joe your a true sportsman for passing that "gagger" on your neighbors property. To think that deer was one step away, a mere hoof print from going on your wall is more than I can take.

 

[jbwhttail]

Rule change package

You are correct Blackoak the rule change package will be scrapped tomorrow at the NRC meeting. The reason for scrapping it is legislative involvement. "Some" people advicated people involving the legislature in a wildlife management issue and people used that avenue. The Indiana Department of Natural Resources(IDNR) under state statute has the authority to set dates seasons bag limits as well as license fees (except non resident license fess). The legislature mandated that the IDNR reduce the deer herd,they have that authority, when IDNR came out with a plan public input was asked for and received. At the same time "some" were contacting legislators as well as the governor asking them to get involved. Both the IDNR and the oversight commission NRC were told by Legislative representatives "if the rule package goes forward we will legislate seasons back to where they are today".

What has now happened is wildlife management has been removed from our paid professionals and placed in the hands of politicians. Before someone posts this is what our elected officials are for let me explain. If the legislature sets dates and bag limits for any wildlife it can only be changed in a legislative session, wildlife is not a priority with our legislature! I am sure that people within IDNR are now frustrated, on one hand they are told to reduce the deer herd by a political body, now that same body threatens to take the ability to reduce the deer herd away. the really sad part is that if it wasn't an election year they probably would have not got involved.

As far as the QDM post...........................

There are three accepted types of deer management utilized in the US today. Traditional deer management, Quality deer management and Trophy Mangement. Our paid professional deer managers(IDNR) have every right to choose which management style to use. We as citizens also have the right to comment, but ultimately they (IDNR) must shoulder the responsibility of managing the resource for the citizens of Indiana, hunters and non hunters alike.

 

[6birds]

There are downfalls to QDM that we are reaping.

One is the explosive popularity of leasing land.

I lease some of my land, (to help pay it off faster).

What is the connection between a deer management program and leased land?

 

[blackoak]

I lease some of my land, (to help pay it off faster).

What is the connection between a deer management program and leased land?

I guessing it's money. If your land holds quality mature bucks you can pretty well name your price that you charge for your ground. I have no problems with leased ground. It has changed the way hunters access property now days. 15 years ago you just needed permission usually to hunt private property and it cost nothing money wise, maybe some help with to farm chores and a hand shake. Now it's a hand shake and opening up your wallet.
By the way, I now open my wallet every year to hunt on ground that prior cost nothing. No, I don't like it, but if I want to hunt on private ground it's something i have to do.

 

[starbreather]

I like the rules in some parts of Kentucky, basically the buks have to have a 9" spread (out side the ears). With new hunting rule changes will Indiana become Illinois, how knows only time will tell. I have the opportunity to hunt private land. I have meet some of the adjacent land owners. Trying to change the mind set and recommend management basically ends the conversation.

 

[blackoak]

As far as the QDM post...........................

There are three accepted types of deer management utilized in the US today. Traditional deer management, Quality deer management and Trophy Mangement. Our paid professional deer managers(IDNR) have every right to choose which management style to use. We as citizens also have the right to comment, but ultimately they (IDNR) must shoulder the responsibility of managing the resource for the citizens of Indiana, hunters and non hunters alike.

You are correct Joe, the DNR does have the right to choose which style of management program for our states deer program, but thankfully they not only listen to stakeholders who are members of hunting organizations that are pro QDM and trophy management, but also the states hunters that want it managed the traditional way. It is evident now which method they have chosen now.
I am a firm believer that if not for the internet, Indiana would be a trophy managing state next year. The very same way the OBR came to be. With 75% of the states hunters not knowing anything about it being put into place until it was shoved in under the door.

Like I said QDM is a good thing if you have the ability to do it with out infringing on others. I practice it myself by passing up small deer , but don't expect Bubba down the road who's main concern is getting his freezer full and could care less about decorating his wall with antlers to do it

 

[woundedyak]

The big bucks are out their! I have 6 good shooters on my trail cam with two of the being over 6yrs of age (140+) Again, on my trail cam. I saw only one of them about two weeks ago. I think they are just bedding down during the day with the warm weather and coming out at night to hit the club and chase some fuzz. Just to add to the point, I think it's pretty
weak how some people take anything that moves. I've seen a lot of little button bucks get taken out of the pool this year. Hell, I saw a guy dragging a doe out that probably weight 40lbs wet! Lame

 

[firehawk1]

Pretty certain the new proposed rules have been tossed out into the nearest landfill.

HOORAY for us! We now need to stay on top of this, and issues like it. IDNR needs to hear from all hunters, not only from a select few who present themselves as speaking for the hunters in the state. IMO IDNR should be required to send a questionare to anyone who holds a Lifetime license, or purchased a deer tag the preceeding year and ask for their input before making decisions on rule changes.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to see the proposed rule changes had zero to do with reducing the herd size in Indiana, it was to cater to a small minority of hunters in the state.

 

[firehawk1]

Wow Joe, haven't seen you in years or even read a post of yours. Good to see you are still fan and constant reader. I appreciate your opinion but I don't think it really matters until you buy the messege board.

Far as the one buck rule goes, in my opinion, it hasn't accomplished a thing other than take a huntion opportunity away from Indiana hunters. There were plenty of deer before it was in affect and there are apparently still enough the state thinks there are too many. There were plenty of ignorant young bucks before the rule and there are plenty now apparently from the posts I read in this thread. You just can't go hunt them if you've shot one with a bow already and you can't go hunt them later with a bow if you shoot one now with a gun.

Who ever got it in, it's not accomplished a thing but give people a reason to stop hunting after they've killed any kind of buck.

If that was the goal, good job.

Could NOT have said it better myself. I'd rep you but it won't let me.

Back to the OP's question. I had a nice sized spike walk in on me yesterday PM. He was big enough to have had bigger antlers, looks to be bad genetics maybe. I might take him later IF he shows up again, and I haven't taken a buck by then. I do have several pictures of fairly nice mature bucks, one nice 8 pt, and a couple of 6 pt.

 

[blackoak]

The big bucks are out their! I have 6 good shooters on my trail cam with two of the being over 6yrs of age (140+) Again, on my trail cam. I saw only one of them about two weeks ago. I think they are just bedding down during the day with the warm weather and coming out at night to hit the club and chase some fuzz. Just to add to the point, I think it's pretty
weak how some people take anything that moves. I've seen a lot of little button bucks get taken out of the pool this year. Hell, I saw a guy dragging a doe out that probably weight 40lbs wet! Lame

The 40 LBS. doe my seem lame to you, but who knows, to the hunter that killed it, it may have been his first deer, or maybe the guy wanted a young doe for its meat. If he was legal, and not hunting on your property, then what he tags is no concern of yours. 40 LBS. does and button buck are legal game in this state. I bet that he will not think it's lame if your lucky enough to tag one of your 6 year old deer you have on camera. Even if he does I bet he doesn't go on line complaining about it.